whp.blue
Well-Known Member
BillyShears said:
NO
but I bet you will see a lot more of those empty seats at every match !
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NO
but I bet you will see a lot more of those empty seats at every match !
Matty
Well-Known Member
Whether you're a Hughes supporter or someone who thinks he's not the answer for City there's one thing that's undeniable, the current league position, and the performances this season are a major disappointment and really aren't acceptable from the squad of players we have at our disposal. Are you really telling me that our group of players, collectively, is worse than those available to Stoke, Bolton, Fulham, Hull or Wigan? Of course not, yet we find ourselves below all of those in the league, in Hull's case by 9 points!
The players have to take some of the blame, there have been many who have underperformed. But Hughes has to take some of the blame too, there have been tactical mistakes, team selection issues, formation errors, rumours of behind the scenes dissatisfaction. These are thinks a top quality manager should eradicate, or at least minimise.
I'll admit that I never wanted Hughes, I didn't like him as a player and I didn't want him as a manager. Some of that was related to his rag past, but the majority of it was related to his lack of experience and my opinion that he simply wasn't good enough for the job at hand. That job has since gotten far larger (following on from ADUG's takeover) so is, in my opinion, even futher removed from his abilities.
Once he'd joined up though there's not much you can do so I decided to support him and hope for the best. I take no great joy in seeing my fears seemingly becoming reality. There have been odd glimpses of brilliance, the Pompey game being the prime example, but there has been too many instances of mediocrity, of poor play, and of a worrying lack of ideas. A month or so ago I was willing to stick with Hughes, now I'm not so sure. Removing him now MAY allow us to improve and aim for Europe, however it may also prove destabilising and destroy the rest of the season too. Keeping him may help us push on after January and climb the table, yet it may also lead to our current woes continuing and leave us in real trouble. It's a tough call and one I'm glad I don't have to make.
It's probably best to leave a decision on the manager until the summer, see where we end up and what can be done from there. In my opinion however, this is a rod that Shinawatra and Cook made for their own backs. They hired a man who wasn't up to the task, the task became harder and he's floundered.
The players have to take some of the blame, there have been many who have underperformed. But Hughes has to take some of the blame too, there have been tactical mistakes, team selection issues, formation errors, rumours of behind the scenes dissatisfaction. These are thinks a top quality manager should eradicate, or at least minimise.
I'll admit that I never wanted Hughes, I didn't like him as a player and I didn't want him as a manager. Some of that was related to his rag past, but the majority of it was related to his lack of experience and my opinion that he simply wasn't good enough for the job at hand. That job has since gotten far larger (following on from ADUG's takeover) so is, in my opinion, even futher removed from his abilities.
Once he'd joined up though there's not much you can do so I decided to support him and hope for the best. I take no great joy in seeing my fears seemingly becoming reality. There have been odd glimpses of brilliance, the Pompey game being the prime example, but there has been too many instances of mediocrity, of poor play, and of a worrying lack of ideas. A month or so ago I was willing to stick with Hughes, now I'm not so sure. Removing him now MAY allow us to improve and aim for Europe, however it may also prove destabilising and destroy the rest of the season too. Keeping him may help us push on after January and climb the table, yet it may also lead to our current woes continuing and leave us in real trouble. It's a tough call and one I'm glad I don't have to make.
It's probably best to leave a decision on the manager until the summer, see where we end up and what can be done from there. In my opinion however, this is a rod that Shinawatra and Cook made for their own backs. They hired a man who wasn't up to the task, the task became harder and he's floundered.
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Anonymous
Guest
scorer said:BillyShears said:It's funny that the tactically inept, clueless, classless, stupid, Mark Hughes managed to get the better of Saint Sven last season, and also in the last few years consistently finished well above City in the league with fewer resources...oh, and he managed to get his no mark, assembled on a shoe string team, to qualify for Europe through their league position.
All through bullying and aggression and the most hideous brand of football we have had to watch (err I mean suffer)...
That said, the muppets at UEFA must have forgotten to put the Blackburn ball into the draw this year..... Oh sorry, they didn't qualify did they.. never mind.
So, on the one hand you want jose mourinho as our next manager, and on the other you lambast Mark Hughes's Blackburn team for being overly aggressive and boring? I guess that's where we end this conversation as we will simply never see eye to eye...
Anyway, as much as I love pretty football, I want to win things. If that means first having to become efficient, ingrain that "win at all costs" mentality within the squad, and sacrifice just a little flair, I'm happy to do that...
BobKowalski
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 17 May 2007
- Messages
- 20,303
BillyShears said:It's funny that the tactically inept, clueless, classless, stupid, Mark Hughes managed to get the better of Saint Sven last season, and also in the last few years consistently finished well above City in the league with fewer resources...oh, and he managed to get his no mark, assembled on a shoe string team, to qualify for Europe through their league position.
Yes he did. Just as 'Saint' Sven got the better of Fergie in the derby (twice) and 'whining' Steve Bruce got the better of Mark Hughes earlier this season and Souness actually won the Carling Cup at Blackburn which is more than Hughes ever achieved. Does this mean Souness is a better manager than Hughes or Sven a better manager than Fergie? No it doesn't and it is a poor criteria for appointing a manager namely that 'he got the better of us in previous seasons'.
Our standard for appointing a manager needs to be hgher, much higher and encompass all aspects of the game - tactics, man management, motivational skills, player purchases, media awareness and most importantly of all a winning mentality that can be instilled into the team and the club as a whole. Ticking one or two of these skills isn't enough if we are serious about competing at the highest level and getting the better of us in the previous season or qualifying for Europe on a modest budget just doesn't cut it. I am not been harsh on Hughes but the standard he is been judged against now is incredibly high and rightly so. Scolari has set a record of the best sequence of away wins in the top flight since 1960 and is second in the PL yet is been criticised for the 'poor' home form and again rightly so. which is why the top teams remain the top teams. Excuses are not tolerated. We postively encourage them. Not enough time to put his stamp on the team. Not his players yet. Players still in Sven slack mode. Seriously it drives me insane that we tolerate this rubbish and we all wonder why we are 17th.
scorer
Well-Known Member
BillyShears said:Anyway, as much as I love pretty football, I want to win things. If that means first having to become efficient, ingrain that "win at all costs" mentality within the squad, and sacrifice just a little flair, I'm happy to do that...
Just like Mark Hughes has done through his illustrious managerial career. I bet he shines that October Manager of the Month award every night!
Mourinho on the other hand.... well. whats a couple of Premiership titles and coutless domestic trophies mean... Oh and big time European success too.
BTW, I have never had an issue with the type of football Chelsea played und Mourinho, neither in style nor aggression. At least they won trophies and never finished bottom of the fair play league...
But as ever Billy, you have a point - worthless it may be, but it is a point.
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Anonymous
Guest
BobKowalski said:Our standard for appointing a manager needs to be hgher, much higher and encompass all aspects of the game - tactics, man management, motivational skills, player purchases, media awareness and most importantly of all a winning mentality that can be instilled into the team and the club as a whole. Ticking one or two of these skills isn't enough if we are serious about competing at the highest level and getting the better of us in the previous season or qualifying for Europe on a modest budget just doesn't cut it. I am not been harsh on Hughes but the standard he is been judged against now is incredibly high and rightly so. Scolari has set a record of the best sequence of away wins in the top flight since 1960 and is second in the PL yet is been criticised for the 'poor' home form and again rightly so. which is why the top teams remain the top teams. Excuses are not tolerated. We postively encourage them. Not enough time to put his stamp on the team. Not his players yet. Players still in Sven slack mode. Seriously it drives me insane that we tolerate this rubbish and we all wonder why we are 17th.
This is where you always lose me Bob...you are in gaga-land if you think right now our benchmark is Chelsea et al. Forget it. We have been fucking dreadful for the vast majority of 2008 (incidentally, IMO our best performances as a team of 2008 have been under MH). Before we start talking about wanting to reach the same levels as Chelsea, why don't we first reach the same levels as....hmmm, Everton....or Villa.
Nobody is making "excuses", but if you refuse to accept that there have been ANY mitigating circumstances in the poor set of results we've had this season, then you aren't really being objective. As I said the other day, in the first third of this season we had some abhorrent refereeing decisions given against us which cost us a minimum of six points, probably a little more. Then on top of that there were several games were either Richards or Dunne made the kind of error you simply don't expect professional footballers in the top flight to make, again, costing us points.
Problem is that people on this board have become so blinkered that they simply refuse to look at the situation objectively. Yes, it's been a fucking poor start...but it's not the end of the world. If your agenda is that it doesn't matter how well Mark Hughes does, you don't want him managing the club, then at least have the spine to say that...however irrational it may be, it will at least be honest.
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Anonymous
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scorer said:BillyShears said:Anyway, as much as I love pretty football, I want to win things. If that means first having to become efficient, ingrain that "win at all costs" mentality within the squad, and sacrifice just a little flair, I'm happy to do that...
Just like Mark Hughes has done through his illustrious managerial career. I bet he shines that October Manager of the Month award every night!
Mourinho on the other hand.... well. whats a couple of Premiership titles and coutless domestic trophies mean... Oh and big time European success too.
BTW, I have never had an issue with the type of football Chelsea played und Mourinho, neither in style nor aggression. At least they won trophies and never finished bottom of the fair play league...
But as ever Billy, you have a point - worthless it may be, but it is a point.
LOL. Coming from the boy who yesterday wanted City to continue losing, I will take your comments with a pinch of salt.
Hughes will be around for a long time I would suggest, and the point of this thread stands. Will you one day SHUT THE FUCK UP, or will you whine yourself into an early grave.
Either way, I'm beyond giving a toss. Everytime I throw you a bone, rather than chewing on it, you stick it up your own arse...pathetic.
scorer
Well-Known Member
BillyShears said:LOL. Coming from the boy who yesterday wanted City to continue losing, I will take your comments with a pinch of salt.
Hughes will be around for a long time I would suggest, and the point of this thread stands. Will you one day SHUT THE FUCK UP, or will you whine yourself into an early grave.
Either way, I'm beyond giving a toss. Everytime I throw you a bone, rather than chewing on it, you stick it up your own arse...pathetic.
Yup, nothing less than I expected.
If Hughes wins two of the next three games he will stay. If he stays we are going to have a totally shite season and end up in the bottom half of the league. If we were to get rid of him now I think we'd do better with anyone in charge, that man has lost it - ergo I would be happy to sacrafice some points if it meant him walking. That way we may still salvage a UEFA cup spot - I dont expect your logic to come this far... dont worry about it.
As has been said before there has yet to be a solid case put forward for Hughes by anybody (including you), this because he is a prospect and has no real success behind him as a manager. Just because he is Citys manager does not mean he is any good.... FFS as you have pointed out yourself we have had previous disasters, Ball, Clarke, Horton... Why is it so difficult to accept that Hughes is nothing more than another disaster? He was the best we could attract argueably, but now, now we have resources (cash) behind us, we can go out and do better... what is the issue?
Some rather bizarre claims about the strength of our squad
We've been without Bojinov, Benjani for most of the season, and who is going to play up front at WBA? Even Sturridge has been struggling with injuries / illness
I'd take Ricardo Fuller from Stoke, and Marlon King from Hull. Both would be a vast improvement on our available strikers.
2008 has been poor. It did not start with Hughes appointment. It started with agents dictating City's transfer policy under SGE. Maybe that was a necessity at the time (there was no time and we employed agents, mostly Anderson to make our signings), but Jo, Corluka, ELano, Caicedo, Fernandes, Benjani, Castillo have all been questionable additions. His best signing Petrov is over-rated as well, and he's injured anyway and unavailable to Hughes
Hughe's signings have been very good. As they should have been with the monies available - but the rest of the squad is lacking because it's unbalanced.
Far from undermining Hughes's brief history as City manager, the state of City's squad with and without injuries explains why we have struggled this season.
Than God for Pearce's signature of Joe Hart, for Jim Cassell and the old war-horses or Dunne and yes Vassell who give there all for this club. You abuse them at times, but never never can they be accused of a lack of effort, and don't belittle that. That's why teams like Hull and Stoke are doing well. They work hard, and have real team spirit, plus a sprinkling of talent in Geo, King, and Fuller. The attitude of some City players as ivery poor. Maybe that's a risk when you buy so many players in such a short period, but how can a professional player not be able to compete over 90 minutes - Elano last season? How can Ireland run himself into the ground, and a player like Jo just ambles around the pitch? I know there are differences in the role, but there is real weakness in this playing squad.....we've got a prima donna attitude, and a lack of personnel in key positions
We've been without Bojinov, Benjani for most of the season, and who is going to play up front at WBA? Even Sturridge has been struggling with injuries / illness
I'd take Ricardo Fuller from Stoke, and Marlon King from Hull. Both would be a vast improvement on our available strikers.
2008 has been poor. It did not start with Hughes appointment. It started with agents dictating City's transfer policy under SGE. Maybe that was a necessity at the time (there was no time and we employed agents, mostly Anderson to make our signings), but Jo, Corluka, ELano, Caicedo, Fernandes, Benjani, Castillo have all been questionable additions. His best signing Petrov is over-rated as well, and he's injured anyway and unavailable to Hughes
Hughe's signings have been very good. As they should have been with the monies available - but the rest of the squad is lacking because it's unbalanced.
Far from undermining Hughes's brief history as City manager, the state of City's squad with and without injuries explains why we have struggled this season.
Than God for Pearce's signature of Joe Hart, for Jim Cassell and the old war-horses or Dunne and yes Vassell who give there all for this club. You abuse them at times, but never never can they be accused of a lack of effort, and don't belittle that. That's why teams like Hull and Stoke are doing well. They work hard, and have real team spirit, plus a sprinkling of talent in Geo, King, and Fuller. The attitude of some City players as ivery poor. Maybe that's a risk when you buy so many players in such a short period, but how can a professional player not be able to compete over 90 minutes - Elano last season? How can Ireland run himself into the ground, and a player like Jo just ambles around the pitch? I know there are differences in the role, but there is real weakness in this playing squad.....we've got a prima donna attitude, and a lack of personnel in key positions
BobKowalski
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 17 May 2007
- Messages
- 20,303
BillyShears said:BobKowalski said:Our standard for appointing a manager needs to be hgher, much higher and encompass all aspects of the game - tactics, man management, motivational skills, player purchases, media awareness and most importantly of all a winning mentality that can be instilled into the team and the club as a whole. Ticking one or two of these skills isn't enough if we are serious about competing at the highest level and getting the better of us in the previous season or qualifying for Europe on a modest budget just doesn't cut it. I am not been harsh on Hughes but the standard he is been judged against now is incredibly high and rightly so. Scolari has set a record of the best sequence of away wins in the top flight since 1960 and is second in the PL yet is been criticised for the 'poor' home form and again rightly so. which is why the top teams remain the top teams. Excuses are not tolerated. We postively encourage them. Not enough time to put his stamp on the team. Not his players yet. Players still in Sven slack mode. Seriously it drives me insane that we tolerate this rubbish and we all wonder why we are 17th.
This is where you always lose me Bob...you are in gaga-land if you think right now our benchmark is Chelsea et al. Forget it. We have been fucking dreadful for the vast majority of 2008 (incidentally, IMO our best performances as a team of 2008 have been under MH). Before we start talking about wanting to reach the same levels as Chelsea, why don't we first reach the same levels as....hmmm, Everton....or Villa.
Nobody is making "excuses", but if you refuse to accept that there have been ANY mitigating circumstances in the poor set of results we've had this season, then you aren't really being objective. As I said the other day, in the first third of this season we had some abhorrent refereeing decisions given against us which cost us a minimum of six points, probably a little more. Then on top of that there were several games were either Richards or Dunne made the kind of error you simply don't expect professional footballers in the top flight to make, again, costing us points.
Problem is that people on this board have become so blinkered that they simply refuse to look at the situation objectively. Yes, it's been a fucking poor start...but it's not the end of the world. If your agenda is that it doesn't matter how well Mark Hughes does, you don't want him managing the club, then at least have the spine to say that...however irrational it may be, it will at least be honest.
Yes I know this is where we part company. However its a mindset. Last season for 4 months with a patchwork squad Sven had them believing they could win matches and mix it with the best. And we did plus the more you win the more you believe you can win. What Sven failed to do is instill that belief to any great degree and it evaporated in the New Year although it did make a brief return in February for that one glorious game :)
Hull have it this year to a certain extent. A belief that they can go to Anfield and win the game. Result is that they get a draw which is still a good result and the belief in themselves is reinforced.
I do believe that to get into the top 4 you have to think like the top 4 and act like the top 4. If you aim for Everton then you will get - Everton. What I want is a man in charge who is arrogant enough to believe that he can win the PL in two seasons given the right financial backing and be good enough to scare the living crap out of Fergie and Co that he might just do it. I want us to be arrogant and annoying not compliant and doff our caps because we are ever so humble and say sorry but we just ain't good enough but we hope to be and the top 4 pat us on the head and makes us mind our manners - like the derby.
As I said its a mindset. We have the financial backing equivalent to the GDP of a small country and getting in the right people means we can achieve a lot relatively quickly. You are right I do not want Hughes and his cautious 'comfort zone' approach. I can think of nothing about it in our current situation to commend it. Its like buying an Aston Martin and installing a Ford Mondeo engine. Seriously what is the point. Even more seriously what is the point of Hughes? Won nothing and the personality of a dead halibut who keeps saying we are not fit to be in the same league as the top 4 and even more worringly believes it.