Ilkay Gundogan - 2018/19 performances

[jimmygrimblesboots]

Ali Bernarbia as good as he was wouldn’t get in this team, even at his peak fitness levels diets etc have all moved on

didnt imply Bernarbia was at our level , how about that Pirlo bloke at his peak ?

 

[oldius]

After 10 years i would have thought you'd have got the hang of a discussion forum.

You can only discuss with people prepared to listen.

My point, is that there is a bias against certain players that becomes a rolling stone, gatherng momentum and a lot of shit along the way.

Similarly, there is a Teflon coating to others who canmot be dropped or criticised.

With Gundogan, I think there is a bias because peoole believe Foden should he taking his place. In Foden we have a local lad, the stuff of dreams and a huge talent. I get it, but it is blinding people to what Gundogan offers.

These are unique times in the history of football. Can we not just enjoy and discuss without the negativity and insults? I have no problems with specific argument that highlight a positive and negative situation within a specific game.

 

[oldius]

Perhaps the Gundogan thread should be used to discuss inspirational Christmas food recipes, or new album releases.

Or maybe just reserved for those who are always impressed by him, whatever he does, or maybe just not have a thread for him at all.

It's not like you to bring nothing to the argument.

 

[FantasyIreland]

You can only discuss with people prepared to listen.

My point, is that there is a bias against certain players that becomes a rolling stone, gatherng momentum and a lot of shit along the way.

Similarly, there is a Teflon coating to others who canmot be dropped or criticised.

With Gundogan, I think there is a bias because peoole believe Foden should he taking his place. In Foden we have a local lad, the stuff of dreams and a huge talent. I get it, but it is blinding people to what Gundogan offers.

These are unique times in the history of football. Can we not just enjoy and discuss without the negativity and insults? I have no problems with specific argument that highlight a positive and negative situation within a specific game.

I can only speak for myself but while Gundogan would seem an obvious obstacle to Fodens development,i don't rate him because of that reason,not remotely.Neither is it a bias for any other reason than his influence and input as my thoughts on Gundogan represent what i see on the pitch and what he offers to our team,and more often than not,when the going gets tough..... that isn't a great deal.

Perhaps my issue stems from expectation as i was made up when he was purchased.I thought we were signing a superstar capable of the incredible,instead we have found ourselves with a player who is very ordinary.So i guess disappointment and being very underwhelmed has influenced my thinking.

In regards other members,maybe some are incapable of discussing one or two of our players with a similar critical eye,and that can understandably lead to frustration......but again,that isn't one of my problems.

 

[Neville Kneville]

You can only discuss with people prepared to listen.

My point, is that there is a bias against certain players that becomes a rolling stone, gatherng momentum and a lot of shit along the way.

Similarly, there is a Teflon coating to others who canmot be dropped or criticised.

With Gundogan, I think there is a bias because peoole believe Foden should he taking his place. In Foden we have a local lad, the stuff of dreams and a huge talent. I get it, but it is blinding people to what Gundogan offers.

These are unique times in the history of football. Can we not just enjoy and discuss without the negativity and insults? I have no problems with specific argument that highlight a positive and negative situation within a specific game.

Imo, the bias in Gundogan's case, is in favour of him & manifests itself as people defending him when he's been a complete waste of space, or rating middling performances as something special. And then come the accusations, for those who don't tow that line.

As for mentioning specifics, it would be much easier to point out something worthwhile Gundongan did, v Watford, rather than pick out specific faults.

How do you discuss fuck all ? Which was his contribution with & without the ball.

In the second half v Southampton, there were many incidents could be picked out to praise him, but it's quicker & easier to say he was really good.

As it is to say that v Watford, he was shite.

 

[oldius]

Imo, the bias in Gundogan's case, is in favour of him & manifests itself as people defending him when he's been a complete waste of space, or rating middling performances as something special. And then come the accusations, for those who don't tow that line.

As for mentioning specifics, it would be much easier to point out something worthwhile Gundongan did, v Watford, rather than pick out specific faults.

How do you discuss fuck all ? Which was his contribution with & without the ball.

In the second half v Southampton, there were many incidents could be picked out to praise him, but it's quicker & easier to say he was really good.

As it is to say that v Watford, he was shite.

Do you mean in the seventeen minutes he was on the field?

 

[Neville Kneville]

Do you mean in the seventeen minutes he was on the field?

Absolutely yes.

He came on, failed to achieve anything with or without the ball, so we missed out midfield & played long ball because it had ceased to work & we couldn't trust it, & took the points, next game.

He might be great if he plays today.

And if he's average, he'll be great in here, for sure.

If he's shite, we either pretend it didn't happen or are not allowed to mention it. Fuck that.

 

[oldius]

I am not saying he is a great player and I am not saying he is poor. We are blessed with the best squad in history and he, in my opinion, makes a valuable contribution to that squad. He has had some excellent games and some average games. I have not seen him have a very poor game though, like all players, I have seen him make some mistakes. There is light and shade to performance and you don't appear to see that Neville.

This season he has started 6 Premier League games and played 4 times as a sub. In that, he has scored 3, assisted 2 and has a pass completion of 92.5%. If you believe that those stats, based on such a small number of appearances, make him a poor player, as you seem to intimate, then I am not the person to debate with.

 

[Easy]

I am not saying he is a great player and I am not saying he is poor. We are blessed with the best squad in history and he, in my opinion, makes a valuable contribution to that squad. He has had some excellent games and some average games. I have not seen him have a very poor game though, like all players, I have seen him make some mistakes. There is light and shade to performance and you don't appear to see that Neville.

This season he has started 6 Premier League games and played 4 times as a sub. In that, he has scored 3, assisted 2 and has a pass completion of 92.5%. If you believe that those stats, based on such a small number of appearances, make him a poor player, as you seem to intimate, then I am not the person to debate with.

Thing is he almost never has excellent games. Those games that he was “excellent” in, all he did was score. Take the 3-2 derby loss, scored a wonderful goal but other than that was non existent. This is the case for most of his games. If he scores, everyone forgets about how he actually played and they say good or even great performance. No it wasn’t!!

Was great against Cardiff this season because he finally got forward, made things happen, scored and assisted. I thought this game is a turning point for him and he would push on. Nope, terrible cameo against Oxford, followed by a disappearing act in Hoffenhiem away where we only won in the last minutes, his next start against West Ham was average again.

He passes sideways or backwards far too often. Don’t even remember the last time he put in a defense splitting through ball or a ball over the top to Sane or Sterling.

Can anyone give a few examples?? Gundogan just doesn’t influence the game enough at this level to justify playing. Look at his cameos compared to Foden’s; night and day objectively speaking, Foden comes on and he’s immediately calling for the ball trying to play through balls and passes forward and Gundogan comes on and just passes sideways or backwards and scores the odd the goal. I don’t see how posters don’t see this. It’s so obvious.

I was ecstatic when Gundogan joined; I immediately noticed his disappearing act in the first season but I told myself he’s just back from a serious injury, give him time, he is just finding his form surely. Then he got injured again, years later he is still disappearing in games far too often. Sadly the injuries have destroyed him and he’s never going to be the player he once was.

Overall a good squad player for us for £21m, played a couple of great games, most notably Barcelona in the CL. Now his time is up imo. He’s blocking Foden’s path and the only real thing he has over Foden is expierence. He’s levels and levels below Kev, Bernardo and Dave.

In the summer he’ll have a year left on his contract.

Can anyone honestly say he deserves a contract extension? An extension also means an increase in wages. Can we really say he merits this?? We would be rewarding mediocracy.

Perfect chance to move him on while he still has some value on the market. Inter Milan were interested in him. A slower paced league would really suit him. Still think he’s a good player but not good enough for a club that is trying to dominate world football.

Would be great in Italy or France playing further forward with less defensive responsibilities where he can make his trade mark late runs into the box. In this market with a year left I think we can get £20m maybe more which would be good value. We can invest that in a DM and give Foden more game time. Gundogan would go to a club where he is first choice and everyone is happy. Really hope this happens.

 

[oldius]

Thing is he almost never has excellent games. Those games that he was “excellent” in, all he did was score. Take the 3-2 derby loss, scored a wonderful goal but other than that was non existent. This is the case for most of his games. If he scores, everyone forgets about how he actually played and they say good or even great performance. No it wasn’t!!

Was great against Cardiff this season because he finally got forward, made things happen, scored and assisted. I thought this game is a turning point for him and he would push on. Nope, terrible cameo against Oxford, followed by a disappearing act in Hoffenhiem away where we only won in the last minutes, his next start against West Ham was average again.

He passes sideways or backwards far too often. Don’t even remember the last time he put in a defense splitting through ball or a ball over the top to Sane or Sterling.

Can anyone give a few examples?? Gundogan just doesn’t influence the game enough at this level to justify playing. Look at his cameos compared to Foden’s; night and day objectively speaking, Foden comes on and he’s immediately calling for the ball trying to play through balls and passes forward and Gundogan comes on and just passes sideways or backwards and scores the odd the goal. I don’t see how posters don’t see this. It’s so obvious.

I was ecstatic when Gundogan joined; I immediately noticed his disappearing act in the first season but I told myself he’s just back from a serious injury, give him time, he is just finding his form surely. Then he got injured again, years later he is still disappearing in games far too often. Sadly the injuries have destroyed him and he’s never going to be the player he once was.

Overall a good squad player for us for £21m, played a couple of great games, most notably Barcelona in the CL. Now his time is up imo. He’s blocking Foden’s path and the only real thing he has over Foden is expierence. He’s levels and levels below Kev, Bernardo and Dave.

In the summer he’ll have a year left on his contract.

Can anyone honestly say he deserves a contract extension? An extension also means an increase in wages. Can we really say he merits this?? We would be rewarding mediocracy.

Perfect chance to move him on while he still has some value on the market. Inter Milan were interested in him. A slower paced league would really suit him. Still think he’s a good player but not good enough for a club that is trying to dominate world football.

Would be great in Italy or France playing further forward with less defensive responsibilities where he can make his trade mark late runs into the box. In this market with a year left I think we can get £20m maybe more which would be good value. We can invest that in a DM and give Foden more game time. Gundogan would go to a club where he is first choice and everyone is happy. Really hope this happens.

You prove my point. In actual fact, Foden's last appearance was relatively poor, and I speak as someone who is a fan and desperately wants him to succeed. He gave the ball away on several occasions, trying to make a killer pass when it wasn't on. Part of the reason for our success is our patience; retaining possession over and over, recirculating until we create a decisive opening and then springing the attack. Because people are desperate for Phil to be a success, they use his lack of opportunity as a stick to beat Gundogan with. Similarly, in the Watford game, Gundogan created a simple passing oppportunity for Delph who chose a different option and lost the ball. Delph is a very good player and a team asset, but he made a mistake that led to the Watford goal and yet he is not being called out for it because he is not in a prospect's way; he, in reality, is cover.

To be clear, I am not suggesting that Gundogan is an absolute world class star, at the top of the tree within our squad. I am saying that he is a valuable player who contributes to a good level. Those players are just as needed in a world class outfit as the stellar world stars.