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Ilkay Gundogan - 2018/19 performances
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blueballs84
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I don't disagree with a lot of your points above but your dismissal of stats is a bit of a yawn. Also, one example of a misjudged pass is just that one example so I refuse to accept that has any validity: every player does that. As I said when I studied him closely for a game, his judgement was very sound but not perfect, IMO.
I also think it's absolute bollocks that other (good) clubs wouldn't want to sign him.
He's become a whipping boy and it's undeserved IMO. That doesn't mean he doesn't have faults or that he couldn't be braver and more adventurous or that I'd rather see other players in the inside forward roles before him...
Pass completion stats are very easily padded with backwards passes and zero risk passes. I'm a stats guy but pass completion needs to be taken in context and with a grain of salt.
ADegenerate
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I'm not sure how the above is a counter to my point. There is a consistent majority who whine about Gundogan no matter what. And it has little to do with his performance and more to do with their perception/expectations.
I don't think he is a particularly good 8. Think he is a very good 6. As good as and current Fernandihno.
Thought he was average yesterday, kinda like David Silva and Bernardo. Not terrible like Walker, Fernandihno or Delph. But somehow, it's his thread that gets the most analysis.
Would I have started him at the 8? Perhaps not. I would have at the 6 though... And nothing I saw last night disproved that. As Dihno was ereer prone at the 6 and looked lethargic.
Apparently, he needed a rest, and Gundogan should have simply taken over. Instead, Instead we shoehorned Bernardo out wide and kept Fernandihno at the 6. That plus an average performance from most on the field coat us.
I like context based analysis
It’s time that you produce the context of what he does well as I’ve posted on numerous occasions why my eyes tell me he’s poor and the stats also say he’s very poor. I posted before the Fulham game that I was ready to start over and observe him neutrally and pointed out that he was shit after and the reasons why. I got heat for that. Now everyone is agreeing with me. Bang average is an understatement if we’re talking about the Lyon game. Things have to flow fluidly from the free 8 position in our system. That’s THE position.... Bang average = extremely poor there. It’s a position incredibly ripe for tangible production and he provides none of it. That’s unexcusable.
ADegenerate
Well-Known Member
Pass completion stats are very easily padded with backwards passes and zero risk passes. I'm a stats guy but pass completion needs to be taken in context and with a grain of salt.
Exactly. It needs to be analysed in conjunction with key passes and assists. 92% pass completion from a midfielder is not a good thing especially at the 8. It means No risk and no production. How many times has pep went on about hating tiki taka and pointless possession? Recycling possession is overrated.
Shaelumstash
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I wrote this in another thread, but it's more suited to here as it sums up my thoughts on him.
The way our team is set up, it's absolutely vital that the two number 8's make themselves available for a pass. That's how we build an attack, the back 4 and Fernandinho feeding the ball in to our number 8s (Silva and DeBruyne) high up the pitch who then slip in one of the wingers or forwards.
Players in this number 8 position are generally operating in very tight spaces with opposition players closing them down. They have to be comfortable receiving the ball under pressure and with little space. They have to constantly make themselves available to receive a pass. That takes real courage. Silva is the best I've ever seen at it, he always wants the ball, will always make himself available for a team mate, always offers an outlet. His touch and balance allows him to slip past opposition players who are tight against him, after he has received the ball.
DeBruyne perhaps isn't quite as comfortable receiving it in such tight spaces, so he wanders to where the space is, sometimes deep, sometimes wide, and he delivers undefendable balls from deeper. He works his arse off to create the space to make himself available to receive the ball.
Gundogan however, does neither of those things. When he is tightly marked, he doesn't demand the ball like Silva does, he doesn't work hard to create the space off the ball ball like DeBruyne does. He hides. I don't know if you go to the games, but you wouldn't see it on TV, but watch his movement when our back 4 or Fernandinho has the ball. He should be showing feet, offering an option, but he doesn't. He faces forwards with his back to the ball, not interested in making himself available.
He did this for the full 50 odd minutes he was on the other night. That's one of the reasons our tempo was so slow. There was only Silva offering himself as an outlet, Gundogan just wasn't interested. He didn't want the ball. I've heard both Pep and Fergurson say that most courageous thing you can do on a football pitch is always want the ball, even when things are going badly. Gundogan doesn't want the ball.
The way our team is set up, it's absolutely vital that the two number 8's make themselves available for a pass. That's how we build an attack, the back 4 and Fernandinho feeding the ball in to our number 8s (Silva and DeBruyne) high up the pitch who then slip in one of the wingers or forwards.
Players in this number 8 position are generally operating in very tight spaces with opposition players closing them down. They have to be comfortable receiving the ball under pressure and with little space. They have to constantly make themselves available to receive a pass. That takes real courage. Silva is the best I've ever seen at it, he always wants the ball, will always make himself available for a team mate, always offers an outlet. His touch and balance allows him to slip past opposition players who are tight against him, after he has received the ball.
DeBruyne perhaps isn't quite as comfortable receiving it in such tight spaces, so he wanders to where the space is, sometimes deep, sometimes wide, and he delivers undefendable balls from deeper. He works his arse off to create the space to make himself available to receive the ball.
Gundogan however, does neither of those things. When he is tightly marked, he doesn't demand the ball like Silva does, he doesn't work hard to create the space off the ball ball like DeBruyne does. He hides. I don't know if you go to the games, but you wouldn't see it on TV, but watch his movement when our back 4 or Fernandinho has the ball. He should be showing feet, offering an option, but he doesn't. He faces forwards with his back to the ball, not interested in making himself available.
He did this for the full 50 odd minutes he was on the other night. That's one of the reasons our tempo was so slow. There was only Silva offering himself as an outlet, Gundogan just wasn't interested. He didn't want the ball. I've heard both Pep and Fergurson say that most courageous thing you can do on a football pitch is always want the ball, even when things are going badly. Gundogan doesn't want the ball.
I wrote this in another thread, but it's more suited to here as it sums up my thoughts on him.
The way our team is set up, it's absolutely vital that the two number 8's make themselves available for a pass. That's how we build an attack, the back 4 and Fernandinho feeding the ball in to our number 8s (Silva and DeBruyne) high up the pitch who then slip in one of the wingers or forwards.
Players in this number 8 position are generally operating in very tight spaces with opposition players closing them down. They have to be comfortable receiving the ball under pressure and with little space. They have to constantly make themselves available to receive a pass. That takes real courage. Silva is the best I've ever seen at it, he always wants the ball, will always make himself available for a team mate, always offers an outlet. His touch and balance allows him to slip past opposition players who are tight against him, after he has received the ball.
DeBruyne perhaps isn't quite as comfortable receiving it in such tight spaces, so he wanders to where the space is, sometimes deep, sometimes wide, and he delivers undefendable balls from deeper. He works his arse off to create the space to make himself available to receive the ball.
Gundogan however, does neither of those things. When he is tightly marked, he doesn't demand the ball like Silva does, he doesn't work hard to create the space off the ball ball like DeBruyne does. He hides. I don't know if you go to the games, but you wouldn't see it on TV, but watch his movement when our back 4 or Fernandinho has the ball. He should be showing feet, offering an option, but he doesn't. He faces forwards with his back to the ball, not interested in making himself available.
He did this for the full 50 odd minutes he was on the other night. That's one of the reasons our tempo was so slow. There was only Silva offering himself as an outlet, Gundogan just wasn't interested. He didn't want the ball. I've heard both Pep and Fergurson say that most courageous thing you can do on a football pitch is always want the ball, even when things are going badly. Gundogan doesn't want the ball.
That's not true in the slighest based on the Lyon game. Gundogan was showing for the ball far more than Silva in the first half.
Shaelumstash
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That's not true in the slighest based on the Lyon game. Gundogan was showing for the ball far more than Silva in the first half.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Not from where I was sat. Silva was receiving the ball way higher up the pitch, constantly looking for Sterling to run in behind, who invariably just wanted it to feet.
Gundogan only touched the ball with his back to goal, far too deep and almost never looked to put Bernado in. The only time Bernado ever got the ball was from a Fernandinho cross field ball.
It wasn’t a coincidence that Gundogan got hooked after 50 odd minutes, he was absolutely garbage.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Not from where I was sat. Silva was receiving the ball way higher up the pitch, constantly looking for Sterling to run in behind, who invariably just wanted it to feet.
Gundogan only touched the ball with his back to goal, far too deep and almost never looked to put Bernado in. The only time Bernado ever got the ball was from a Fernandinho cross field ball.
It wasn’t a coincidence that Gundogan got hooked after 50 odd minutes, he was absolutely garbage.
What do you think happens when DeBruyne plays, he's the one thst comes deeper and shows for the ball from centre backs/Fernandinho, just like Gundogan was doing on Wednesday, watch again, I'm not saying he was any good but he wasn't hiding.
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