How much have Thatcher/Reagan contributed to the state of the world today?

[johnnytapia]

 

[Kirkstall Blue]

As the architect of the European Single Market she certainly wouldn’t have supported the clowns that were in office for the last 5 years or Cameron’s decision to have a referendum in the first place.

We can’t blame her for the single market although it was the beginning of all our industrial downfall.

 

[SebastianBlue]

I think their influence is overstated because it’s clear from looking at the world more widely that there has been a global shift towards more capitalist-centric economies since the ‘70s that is a natural and inevitable function of the evolution of globalisation, driven by market forces.

I think, in short, we’d likely be pretty much where we now are anyway, give or take.

That is quite the statement given the influence of Reagan’s admin’s specific flavour of capitalism (and government deregulation)had on economic trends of the last 40 years, and Thatcher’s cabinet’s own similar stances’ impacts on the UK and Europe.

That’s ignoring that we likely would not have Trump and the MAGA party right now without Reagan setting the foundation for it in many ways. I have spoken about that at length in the Trump thread, and am happy to share those posts if you are interested. Ironically, even beyond the more obvious cultural (including launching the culture wars in earnest) and economic shifts Reagan brought about, it turns out Project 2025 borrows heavily from the Reagan campaign’s own transition plan document. Another fun fact: the Heritage Foundation helped to draft that plan, as well.

To be clear, when I refer to Reagan or Thatcher in any discussion like this, I really mean their handlers, as neither were actually particularly gifted thinkers or tacticians. That is especially the case for Reagan, who was never particularly clever to begin with, and that deficit was made worse by his rapid cognitive decline in his second term (former staffers and his own family have admitted he suffered from ALZ toward the end of his presidency). It is one of the reasons I don’t generally like to use the term “Reaganomics”—he had very little do with that destructive economic “philosophy” or the package of economic policies that formed it in practice (or the unfortunate impacts it has had over the past four decades).

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

That is quite the statement given the influence of Reagan’s admin’s specific flavour of capitalism (and government deregulation)had on economic trends of the last 40 years, and Thatcher’s cabinet’s own similar stances’ impacts on the UK and Europe.

That’s ignoring that we likely would not have Trump and the MAGA party right now without Reagan setting the foundation for it in many ways. I have spoken about that at length in the Trump thread, and am happy to share those posts if you are interested. Ironically, even beyond the more obvious cultural (including launching the culture wars in earnest) and economic shifts Reagan brought about, it turns out Project 2025 borrows heavily from the Reagan campaign’s own transition plan document. Another fun fact: the Heritage Foundation helped to draft that plan, as well.

To be clear, when I refer to Reagan or Thatcher in any discussion like this, I really mean their handlers, as neither were actually particularly gifted thinkers or tacticians. That is especially the case for Reagan, who was never particularly clever to begin with, and that deficit was made worse by his rapid cognitive decline in his second term (former staffers and his own family have admitted he suffered from ALZ toward the end of his presidency). It is one of the reasons I don’t generally like to use the term “Reaganomics”—he had very little do with that destructive economic “philosophy” or the package of economic policies that formed it in practice (or the unfortunate impacts it has had over the past four decades)

When I said ‘we’ in my second paragraph I meant the UK, and didn’t make that clear, so apologies

So in terms of the UK, yes, I’d say so. I think more stuff would be in public hands (which would be a good thing) If Thatcher hadn’t been elected in 1979, but still certainly discernibly less than in the ‘70s. I also think our service sector would have grown hugely in the last 45 years as industrial production inexorably moved to the east. I think income tax levels in the ‘70s were unsustainable and are currently probably about as high as they can feasibly go, so I think those levels would be about the same as they are now, give or take.

People who think that we’d have simply carried on with the postwar consensus aren’t looking at the bigger picture. I think we’d have ended up with a market led economy come what may. Fifteen years of a Labour government didn’t reverse that for a good reason.

 

[SebastianBlue]

When I said ‘we’ in my second paragraph I meant the UK, and didn’t make that clear, so apologies

So in terms of the UK, yes, I’d say so. I think more stuff would be in public hands (which would be a good thing) If Thatcher hadn’t been elected in 1979, but still certainly discernibly less than in the ‘70s. I also think our service sector would have grown hugely in the last 45 years as industrial production inexorably moved to the east. I think income tax levels in the ‘70s were unsustainable and are currently probably about as high as they can feasibly go, so I think those levels would be about the same as they are now, give or take.

People who think that we’d have simply carried on with the postwar consensus aren’t looking at the bigger picture. I think we’d have ended up with a market led economy come what may. Fifteen years of a Labour government didn’t reverse that for a good reason.

Fair enough; I had definitely interpreted your post more broadly.

I agree that some of the current state of UK political and economic affairs would have occurred if neither Reagan nor Thatcher (and the entourage that came with them) had ever risen to any sort of position of influence. That is the case with really any major figure—post hoc ergo propter hoc tends to be motto fallacy of any cult of personality.

But I do not necessarily agree we would be where we are now without their influences. I think Reagan especially had a huge hand in the rise of UKIP, the march to Brexit (and the aftermath), and the sort of culture war politics that have taken hold in the UK.

 

[johnnytapia]

Thatcher’s greatest achievement: Labour.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Thatcher’s greatest achievement: losing that Lincolnshire accent.

 

[Vienna_70]

Seconded. She was an evil woman and I know family members that were happy when she died.

Mrs Vienna hates to hear that anyone has died, but she rang me to tell me the news, and I could hear the delight in her voice.

She absolutely hated the Grantham granny with a passion.

 

[WestGorton]

In the 1970s, for all its issues, Britain mist the most equal society in Europe. Now it is the most unequal. Down to Thatcher and that ideology.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

In the 1970s, for all its issues, Britain mist the most equal society in Europe. Now it is the most unequal. Down to Thatcher and that ideology.

When you say Europe, I presume you mean Western (i.e. non-Warsaw Pact) Europe.