Islamic Terrorism: is religion/belief no matter how misguided, the main motivator?

Magicpole said:
The assertion that religion is irrelevant to the current manifestation of Islamic terrorism is false. It is the central tenet of their motivation. It is also the case that this phenomenon has its roots in Wahhabi doctrine, established by a man of that name in the 17th century, who advocated a return to an Islamic form of government and society ordered around the Quran and the Haddiths.

This form of Islam is currently the structure which Saudi Arabia operates and for the last 30 years they have exported this through funding thousands of Mosques world wide. This is a fundamentalist form of Islam that sees as its ultimate goal, the establishment of a world wide Caliphate.

People dismiss these people as corrupting the Quran. The problem here is that within the Quran and Haddiths, there are texts that actually command efforts to establish a caliphate and to kill or subjugate non believers and the followers of this doctrine point to these writings from the Prophet as justification, and indeed compulsion to seek these ends.

Similar to Christianity, the vast majority of Muslims do not enact or pursue the more extreme aspects of the teachings. If anybody thinks such extreme instructions are not contained within the Bible, they haven't read it. They are there, but due to primarily to the Enlightenment, Reformation and separation of Church and State, we have seen an interpretation of the Bible that ignores the barbaric aspects and focuses upon the nice bits. The sanitised bits. Here are only a few commands from the God of the Bible

Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude

Now, we don't do this, but, if you believed, or were convinced that these are commands from God, you would use them as the justification as Islamic Jihadists do. They point to similar 'divine command' writings and reject those who they see as betraying the true teachings.

Religion and adherence to its writings in a literal sense are 'the' motivation.

The last century has seen the ending of the Ottoman Caliphate after WW1,
The establishment of Isreal, the abortive wars in the Middle East,all of which have contributed to the radical clerics armoury to radicalise and promote violence in the pursuance of a world wide Caliphate. They point to the writings that command Muslims and ignore the condemnation of murder and ill treatment of the children of the book. Us.

Christianity had a reformation, as science proved that the writings of the bible were wrong in relation to how the world is and our place in the universe. Capernicus, Gallileo who showed the earth wasn't the centre of the universe and who was threatened with torture and indeed spent the last 15 years of his life under house arrest. We went from a literal interpretation of the bible to a more well, it's of its time, it's a guide, but, if it was written through divine guidance, the word of God, then who are we to dismiss it? This is what Fundamental Islamists believe. It is not permissible to deny that every word is truly the word of Allah.

We now are in the period of increased violence. Sectarian violence within Islam between Shia and Sunni interpretations. We see our involment in a military context in the Middle East as the the main tool used to redicalise.

They also point to things like Muslim bans in America. Support for an expansionist Isreal as examples of how Muslims are victims. They then point to the book. The book, like the bible contain instructions and indeed commands to violence in the achievement of gods wish for a world wide Caliphate.

The problem for any attempts to reduce tension are hampered by the simple fact, that if you believe every word of a holy book is divine, men cannot challenge it. This will see an eternal number of people who, although in an extemely small minority of Muslims, are still in the millions if we look at the 1.2 billion people within this faith.

Religion is the motivator.

It is the justification they use. They actually believe they will be Martyrs. They believe it because the book tells them. 99% do not accept this and say it is a corruption of the Quran. The problem with this is it is in the Quran as those commands are in the bible. The extreme clerics point to them, point to the geopolitical situation and convince young men and women that God wants them to establish a caliphate through any means.

I have attached a link that gives a historic evolution of what we call extreme Islam, but what those within it see as the command of God. If we are to defeat it, contain it,we need to understand where it comes from. Who is promoting it. What are we doing to exasperate it. What we can do to support Muslims who are happy to live in a secular society to combat the radicalisation of the young. What we do with Saudi Arabia in its promotion of Wahhabi doctrine.

My fear is that they will become more sophisticated in designing bombs, as seems to be the case in Manchester. The call to Syria has been replaced with instruction to stay in the west and use any means to strike. We cannot ignore that intelligence from within the British Musim community plays a major factor in our ability to thwart attacks. This has to be recognised and applauded but more importantly supported.

To defeat an idea, a doctrine that you believe is the word of God is impossible. What is possible is reducing the recruitment and this can only be achieved when we remove the recruitment tools by looking to find political solutions to the Middle East. To call out Saudi Arabia and stop wahabi doctrine expansion.

But, even if all that was achieved we will still have people who will reject it unless it includes the world accepting Islam, which won't happen. The reality is increased attacks will be the norm in the west. I can see no other future for us all. Radical hate preachers and their followers need to be tackled, but that will only drive them
underground. Religion and its ability to make reason redundant is the main issue. To deny that is to deny what motivates them. Read the books and tell me there isn't in black and white instructions to act in the way we see today by extremists. It's there.

I will end with a quote that I think sums up the issue.

In a world without religion, good men would do good things and bad men would do evil things.

But for good men to do evil things, that requires religion.

Below is a summary of information on this topic and gives a background to where things are.

http://www.crf-usa.org/america-resp...rom-1945-to-the-death-of-osama-bin-laden.html
Click to expand...

Your thread being brought back up will probably be the end of it. I started a similar topic this week. Although not as eloquently and knowledgeable as yours.

I was angry at the reports of another grooming gang being prosecuted in Newcastle. I read quite a few news articles on the matter. And not one pointed out the glaring fact and motivation behind this persistent grooming of young British girls. That motivation is Religion, in these cases... Islam. Religion is for the brain dead. I mean come on. Whoever believes in a God in this day and age is a fucking numpty. There's a hell of a lot more proof that the tooth fairy exists. Lol

My thread was about how it is never mentioned that the huge numbers of people who were arrested or charged for these offences are all Muslim. And it is they're faith that is the reason / excuse to commit these horrible crime's against British women / non believers / infidels. One girl who was a victim / witness in the Newcastle case where 461 people were arrested, reports that she was drugged and gang raped on over 60 separate occasions. 60! Ffs. Someone's daughter who was 16/17 was gangraped that many times, and some bright MOD on here thought it was best to take my thread down for some reason. Its unbelievable that a thread discussing that was removed from the forum. Whoever it was who removed it. Shame on you.

People need to wake up. Stop being a fucking sheep and beating your PC drum. Have your own thoughts. Don't be so politically correct because society tells you to be. That''s what's got us in this shit in the first place. Do your own research and you will find out for yourself that you were as much of an idiot as the looney islamist extremists.

And for the record I think all religion is bollocks. The west are slowly starting to realise this as they become a bit more knowledgeable and smarter. The middle east are still stuck in the the dark ages.

Come on, they believe mohammed flew to the heavens to meet Allah on a horse. They'd still be stupid if they thought it was a unicorn. But not quite as stupid as believing it was a fucking horse.

And the c**t mohammed raped his wife when she was 9 years old. The peado fucking c**t. If blue moon allowed me to draw, I'd draw a picture of the fucking horse riding nonce.

Rant over. Bed time :-)
 
Magicpole said:
The assertion that religion is irrelevant to the current manifestation of Islamic terrorism is false. It is the central tenet of their motivation. It is also the case that this phenomenon has its roots in Wahhabi doctrine, established by a man of that name in the 17th century, who advocated a return to an Islamic form of government and society ordered around the Quran and the Haddiths.

This form of Islam is currently the structure which Saudi Arabia operates and for the last 30 years they have exported this through funding thousands of Mosques world wide. This is a fundamentalist form of Islam that sees as its ultimate goal, the establishment of a world wide Caliphate.

People dismiss these people as corrupting the Quran. The problem here is that within the Quran and Haddiths, there are texts that actually command efforts to establish a caliphate and to kill or subjugate non believers and the followers of this doctrine point to these writings from the Prophet as justification, and indeed compulsion to seek these ends.

Similar to Christianity, the vast majority of Muslims do not enact or pursue the more extreme aspects of the teachings. If anybody thinks such extreme instructions are not contained within the Bible, they haven't read it. They are there, but due to primarily to the Enlightenment, Reformation and separation of Church and State, we have seen an interpretation of the Bible that ignores the barbaric aspects and focuses upon the nice bits. The sanitised bits. Here are only a few commands from the God of the Bible

Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude

Now, we don't do this, but, if you believed, or were convinced that these are commands from God, you would use them as the justification as Islamic Jihadists do. They point to similar 'divine command' writings and reject those who they see as betraying the true teachings.

Religion and adherence to its writings in a literal sense are 'the' motivation.

The last century has seen the ending of the Ottoman Caliphate after WW1,
The establishment of Isreal, the abortive wars in the Middle East,all of which have contributed to the radical clerics armoury to radicalise and promote violence in the pursuance of a world wide Caliphate. They point to the writings that command Muslims and ignore the condemnation of murder and ill treatment of the children of the book. Us.

Christianity had a reformation, as science proved that the writings of the bible were wrong in relation to how the world is and our place in the universe. Capernicus, Gallileo who showed the earth wasn't the centre of the universe and who was threatened with torture and indeed spent the last 15 years of his life under house arrest. We went from a literal interpretation of the bible to a more well, it's of its time, it's a guide, but, if it was written through divine guidance, the word of God, then who are we to dismiss it? This is what Fundamental Islamists believe. It is not permissible to deny that every word is truly the word of Allah.

We now are in the period of increased violence. Sectarian violence within Islam between Shia and Sunni interpretations. We see our involment in a military context in the Middle East as the the main tool used to redicalise.

They also point to things like Muslim bans in America. Support for an expansionist Isreal as examples of how Muslims are victims. They then point to the book. The book, like the bible contain instructions and indeed commands to violence in the achievement of gods wish for a world wide Caliphate.

The problem for any attempts to reduce tension are hampered by the simple fact, that if you believe every word of a holy book is divine, men cannot challenge it. This will see an eternal number of people who, although in an extemely small minority of Muslims, are still in the millions if we look at the 1.2 billion people within this faith.

Religion is the motivator.

It is the justification they use. They actually believe they will be Martyrs. They believe it because the book tells them. 99% do not accept this and say it is a corruption of the Quran. The problem with this is it is in the Quran as those commands are in the bible. The extreme clerics point to them, point to the geopolitical situation and convince young men and women that God wants them to establish a caliphate through any means.

I have attached a link that gives a historic evolution of what we call extreme Islam, but what those within it see as the command of God. If we are to defeat it, contain it,we need to understand where it comes from. Who is promoting it. What are we doing to exasperate it. What we can do to support Muslims who are happy to live in a secular society to combat the radicalisation of the young. What we do with Saudi Arabia in its promotion of Wahhabi doctrine.

My fear is that they will become more sophisticated in designing bombs, as seems to be the case in Manchester. The call to Syria has been replaced with instruction to stay in the west and use any means to strike. We cannot ignore that intelligence from within the British Musim community plays a major factor in our ability to thwart attacks. This has to be recognised and applauded but more importantly supported.

To defeat an idea, a doctrine that you believe is the word of God is impossible. What is possible is reducing the recruitment and this can only be achieved when we remove the recruitment tools by looking to find political solutions to the Middle East. To call out Saudi Arabia and stop wahabi doctrine expansion.

But, even if all that was achieved we will still have people who will reject it unless it includes the world accepting Islam, which won't happen. The reality is increased attacks will be the norm in the west. I can see no other future for us all. Radical hate preachers and their followers need to be tackled, but that will only drive them
underground. Religion and its ability to make reason redundant is the main issue. To deny that is to deny what motivates them. Read the books and tell me there isn't in black and white instructions to act in the way we see today by extremists. It's there.

I will end with a quote that I think sums up the issue.

In a world without religion, good men would do good things and bad men would do evil things.

But for good men to do evil things, that requires religion.

Below is a summary of information on this topic and gives a background to where things are.

http://www.crf-usa.org/america-resp...rom-1945-to-the-death-of-osama-bin-laden.html
Click to expand...
I'm not saying any whole religion is right or wrong. But, using scripture to make points can be wrong. Even the devil can quote scripture. Long and short of that is, scripture can be used by whomever, however.

For every scripture you or I post from Christianity, Islam or Judaism someone else can find something on the other side.

I do see your point though.
 
SouthStandStander said:
Your thread being brought back up will probably be the end of it. I started a similar topic this week. Although not as eloquently and knowledgeable as yours.

I was angry at the reports of another grooming gang being prosecuted in Newcastle. I read quite a few news articles on the matter. And not one pointed out the glaring fact and motivation behind this persistent grooming of young British girls. That motivation is Religion, in these cases... Islam. Religion is for the brain dead. I mean come on. Whoever believes in a God in this day and age is a fucking numpty. There's a hell of a lot more proof that the tooth fairy exists. Lol

My thread was about how it is never mentioned that the huge numbers of people who were arrested or charged for these offences are all Muslim. And it is they're faith that is the reason / excuse to commit these horrible crime's against British women / non believers / infidels. One girl who was a victim / witness in the Newcastle case where 461 people were arrested, reports that she was drugged and gang raped on over 60 separate occasions. 60! Ffs. Someone's daughter who was 16/17 was gangraped that many times, and some bright MOD on here thought it was best to take my thread down for some reason. Its unbelievable that a thread discussing that was removed from the forum. Whoever it was who removed it. Shame on you.

People need to wake up. Stop being a fucking sheep and beating your PC drum. Have your own thoughts. Don't be so politically correct because society tells you to be. That''s what's got us in this shit in the first place. Do your own research and you will find out for yourself that you were as much of an idiot as the looney islamist extremists.

And for the record I think all religion is bollocks. The west are slowly starting to realise this as they become a bit more knowledgeable and smarter. The middle east are still stuck in the the dark ages.

Come on, they believe mohammed flew to the heavens to meet Allah on a horse. They'd still be stupid if they thought it was a unicorn. But not quite as stupid as believing it was a fucking horse.

And the c**t mohammed raped his wife when she was 9 years old. The peado fucking c**t. If blue moon allowed me to draw, I'd draw a picture of the fucking horse riding nonce.

Rant over. Bed time :-)
Click to expand...
At something to 3 on a Saturday night/Sunday morning I used to be thinking about pussy or pizza - not Muslims. How times change.
 
SouthStandStander said:
Your thread being brought back up will probably be the end of it. I started a similar topic this week. Although not as eloquently and knowledgeable as yours.

I was angry at the reports of another grooming gang being prosecuted in Newcastle. I read quite a few news articles on the matter. And not one pointed out the glaring fact and motivation behind this persistent grooming of young British girls. That motivation is Religion, in these cases... Islam. Religion is for the brain dead. I mean come on. Whoever believes in a God in this day and age is a fucking numpty. There's a hell of a lot more proof that the tooth fairy exists. Lol

My thread was about how it is never mentioned that the huge numbers of people who were arrested or charged for these offences are all Muslim. And it is they're faith that is the reason / excuse to commit these horrible crime's against British women / non believers / infidels. One girl who was a victim / witness in the Newcastle case where 461 people were arrested, reports that she was drugged and gang raped on over 60 separate occasions. 60! Ffs. Someone's daughter who was 16/17 was gangraped that many times, and some bright MOD on here thought it was best to take my thread down for some reason. Its unbelievable that a thread discussing that was removed from the forum. Whoever it was who removed it. Shame on you.

People need to wake up. Stop being a fucking sheep and beating your PC drum. Have your own thoughts. Don't be so politically correct because society tells you to be. That''s what's got us in this shit in the first place. Do your own research and you will find out for yourself that you were as much of an idiot as the looney islamist extremists.

And for the record I think all religion is bollocks. The west are slowly starting to realise this as they become a bit more knowledgeable and smarter. The middle east are still stuck in the the dark ages.

Come on, they believe mohammed flew to the heavens to meet Allah on a horse. They'd still be stupid if they thought it was a unicorn. But not quite as stupid as believing it was a fucking horse.

And the c**t mohammed raped his wife when she was 9 years old. The peado fucking c**t. If blue moon allowed me to draw, I'd draw a picture of the fucking horse riding nonce.

Rant over. Bed time :-)
Click to expand...

Ok.

So everyone acknowledges (which they do) that the gang were all Muslim.
Pretend the media also state that all gang members were Muslim.

Now what ? How does that change anything ?
 
The perfect fumble said:
Not really, All terrorism is politically motivated. We rightly don't talk about Catholicism being the main motivator of the IRA bombings, the IRA bombed in the name of Irish nationalism, but not all Irish nationalists were terrorists, the Protestants bombed in the name of loyalism, but not all loyalists were terrorists. The Shinning Path, Red Brigades FARC, Red Army Faction killed in the name of Marxism, but not all Marxists were terrorists. ISIS bomb in the name of Allah that's true, but that's because their political objective is some form of theocratic state based on their interpretation of the Muslim religion, but not all Muslims adhere to that interpretation, in fact the majority do not and clearly all Muslims are not terrorists, the vast majority are appalled at what ISIS is doing..

In fact if you look at all the factionalism in the Middle East it looks, from the outside, like a fight over trivial differences in interpretation of the same ideology, not unlike the ones you got on the extremist fringes of left wing politics.

It's easier to appreciate this if you're an atheist and a left winger. If you don't believe in god and see religion as nothing more than an ideology masquerading as something else, it's easy to see how a faction of that ideology can go its own way, obsessed with their particular interpretation, an interpretation not widely accepted or even recognised by the vast majority of believers in that ideology. What we are seeing is an extremist authoritarian splinter group of an ideology killing in the name of a wider group they do not represent. Sadly it happens a lot.

As for men, travel back with me to the radical feminism of the1970's and Marilyn French...

Marilyn French's first and best-known novel, The Women's Room (1977), followed the lives of Mira and her friends in 1950s and 1960s America, including Val, a militant radical feminist. The novel portrays the details of the lives of women at that time and the feminist movement of that era in the United States. At one point in the book the character Val says, "all men are rapists, and that's all they are. They rape us with their eyes, their laws, and their codes."

The Women's Room sold more than 20 million copies and was translated into 20 languages. Men were outraged at the time and that particular phrase has been mocked and scorned by men ever since. But it hit a chord and remains relevant because there's more than a grain of truth in it.
Click to expand...

Enjoyed reading that.
 
BlueHammer85 said:
Ok.

So everyone acknowledges (which they do) that the gang were all Muslim.
Pretend the media also state that all gang members were Muslim.

Now what ? How does that change anything ?
Click to expand...

It changes the narrative. Instead of the repeated swerving of the the causes. All you hear is "religion of peace", that is just brushing it under the carpet. It is far from a region of peace, it's quite the opposite.
First there needs to be an acceptance of the problem. Until that happens it will just get worse.
 
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