Ken Livingston

[foxy]

3 suspensions today, great weekend for Labour! Did anybody see Diane Flabboot dismissing the recent news as a smear?

 

[kas_tippler]

Is Livingston still hiding in the bogs?

 

[bluevillain]

Mans a snake and a slimy one at that.

 

[west didsblue]

I quite like your point about Australia, the us and Pakistan which is a fair comparison. I would take issue with 'Jewish people' being indigenous to the area though. I personally regard Jewish people as members of a religion rather than a race, just like Christians and Muslims are not a race either. One problem which I'm sure you're aware of is that nearly all the abrahamic cults regard parts of this section of the world as theirs. Its probably the fault of the UK and us that the present day Israeli nation is having to slug it out with the indigenous brown folks that feel it belongs to them. This brings us neatly back to your comparison with the birth of the us and Australia which also necessitated the killing and persecution of poor indigenous brown people.

Actually there is a difference in that regard between Jewish people and Christians/Muslims. Christianity and Islam grew through conquest hence there are large numbers of different races and ethnicities that are adherents of those faiths whereas Jewish people have evolved organically to a large extent. That's why there's over 1 billion Christians and Muslims in the world and only 15 million Jews. DNA studies have shown that 80% of Jews have some ancestry that originates in that area. This is why Jews are described as an ethno-religious group not just adherents of a religion. This is why you can be ethnically Jewish but be an adherent of Christianity or any other religion. Benjamin Disraeli was an example of this and their are numerous people who consider themselves Jewish and Atheist, an example being Ed Miliband.

 

[Helmet Cole]

Actually there is a difference in that regard between Jewish people and Christians/Muslims. Christianity and Islam grew through conquest hence there are large numbers of different races and ethnicities that are adherents of those faiths whereas Jewish people have evolved organically to a large extent. That's why there's over 1 billion Christians and Muslims in the world and only 15 million Jews. DNA studies have shown that 80% of Jews have some ancestry that originates in that area. This is why Jews are described as an ethno-religious group not just adherents of a religion. This is why you can be ethnically Jewish but be an adherent of Christianity or any other religion. Benjamin Disraeli was an example of this.

I take your point, but I don't feel this entitles Jewish people to be treated differently to people of any other faith (for better or worse). Indeed, to describe themselves as a race/ethnicity rather than a belief system lends it to persecution at the hands of nutters as history has indeed shown. As the old saying goes 'you can't kill an idea', but you can exterminate a race.

 

[west didsblue]

I take your point, but I don't feel this entitles Jewish people to be treated differently to people of any other faith (for better or worse). Indeed, to describe themselves as a race/ethnicity rather than a belief system lends it to persecution at the hands of nutters as history has indeed shown. As the old saying goes 'you can't kill an idea', but you can exterminate a race.

I think most Jewish people just want to be treated the same as everyone else but, as you say, history has shown that it's other people who tend to want to treat Jews differently. Luckily that's not the case in this country and much of the western world these days where it tends to only be people on the fringes of society and some conspiracy theorists who have a problem with Jews. It's a different story in much of the Middle East though.

 

[Helmet Cole]

What you said in your previous post about such a large % of Jews sharing DNA specific DNA is I'm ashamed to say news to me. This in itself makes it much easier to accidentally spill over into racism when discussing the legitimacy of the Israeli state when you have a state founded upon a religious group, which it seems rightly regards itself as a distinct ethnicity. No easy answer I fear for anyone deciding to aim (even well deserved) criticism at Israeli foreign policy.

 

[west didsblue]

What you said in your previous post about such a large % of Jews sharing DNA specific DNA is I'm ashamed to say news to me. This in itself makes it much easier to accidentally spill over into racism when discussing the legitimacy of the Israeli state when you have a state founded upon a religious group, which it seems rightly regards itself as a distinct ethnicity. No easy answer I fear for anyone deciding to aim (even well deserved) criticism at Israeli foreign policy.

I don't think that anyone should think twice about criticising Israeli government policy and the way Palestinians are treated. Many Israelis and Jews around the world do it all the time. I personally think Netanyahu is a ****. Questioning the right of Israel to exist is another matter.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

You clearly seem to think, actually scratch that, I've no idea what you think, or what it is you think I think.

I am happy to accept all your subsequent posts about anti-Zionism not being anti-Semitism or that questioning the legitimacy of Israel is not being anti-Semitic, fine. But it doesn't square with this, when someone posts, as you did that "The Jewish religion is however completely wedded to the idea of Israel as its spiritual home" and goes on to say "by saying you're "anti-Zionist" then by definition you're expressing a desire to see the destruction of Israel." and even using the politically loaded phrase "Jewish state".

Funnily enough, I've very little idea what you're trying to say either.

You asked whether Zionism was a political or religious movement. The answer was it's a bit of both. A focal point of Judaism has been the desire to return to Israel (Zion), to rebuild the temple and the belief that this will be achieved when the Messiah comes. That's the religious part of it. Zionism was the political movement that arose in the late 19th Century that sought to deliver that by political means and which was achieved in 1948. Many ultra-religious Jews don't accept this, by the way, as they believe only God can rebuild the Temple and return the exiled Jews to Zion.

So there is a view among the Zionist right-wing that anti-Zionism (whatever that is) is by definition anti-Semitic. That's where people like Netanyahu are coming from. But because he says that, it doesn't mean it's true. As a fairly unscrupulous politician, he wants to paint critics of his actions in the worst light he can, in the same way Thatcher called the miners 'the enemy within' and tried to paint them as being directed by external powers hostile to the West and democracy.

You can criticise Israel purely on a political basis and not be anti-Semitic. But you can criticise Israel (as many do) simply because it's a Jewish state and be anti-Semitic. I wouldn't even claim that those who seek to de-legitimise Israel are automatically anti-Semitic but I bet a significant proportion of them are because they hate the idea of a Jewish state simply because it is a Jewish state.

If you're looking for a simple or simplistic answer, then you aren't going to get one. I'm not sure that you understand this. In fact, here's what Shami Chakrabarti herself said 5 years ago in an interview:

"It's when, for example, the word Zionist is used in some parts of political debate, but not used in a political sense. It is not used to mean someone who believes in the State of Israel for example, but you feel it's used euphemistically and pejoratively.

So I'll ask you, what do you understand by the term 'anti-Zionism'?

 

[cibaman]

Wasn't his comment that an anti semite doesn't just hate jews in Israel... anti semitic rather than anti Zionism?