Kevin De Bruyne 2016/17

[franksinatra]

It is low, but it is easily balanced against his production rate both in terms of assists, goals, and key passes. Looking at his pass completion % in isolation for me doesn't really tell you anything. It's what he's doing with the balls that are finding their man that give context to the overall %. Same applies to Silva. I also bet KDB has the better pre assist % too.

I think it would also be fair to say in general wide attackers or wingers have lower pass completion %'s than central playmakers. And overall Silva has played centrally much more than KDB has so far this season.

As an aside Messi and Neymar both have pass completion %'s this season of 80 and 81% respectively.

I think that is the problem with using passing stats as a method of judging players ability to pass a ball.

Players like Fernando would likely have better passing rates as there simply distributing the ball to the more creative players who are tasked with the more tricky task of opening up an organised defence. For players like De Bruyne/Navas that can often mean crossing a ball twenty yards into the opposition box where City are numerically disadvantaged. Bit different to players playing square balls five yards.

Personally I think KDB could play comfortably in both positions. I dont really understand the argument he is a counter attacking player due to his skillset as within our side, where teams generally defend deep, we need decisive players like De Bruyne more than ever to open up sides whose sole purpose is to defend.

Separate to KDB, Silva is definitely out of form at the minute. Personally I think he has struggled to find the pockets of space he found when drifting from the flanks inwards. Whether this is due to playing in a different position or a loss of form im not completely sure.

Personally I like KDB out wide due to his crossing ability and the fact that naturally stretches the opposition. However if Silva has lost form we also have the likes of Sterling, Iheanacho waiting in the wings and therefore if a player loses form they deserve an opportunity.

KDB would be the natural choice within a 4-2-3-1 role if Silva is dropped/rested with Sterling slotting into the left side of the three. I have no doubt he could perform in that role.

 

[schfc6]

Nothing you said above is necessarily wrong. It's just a different way of playing the same position. Doesn't make one any better or worse. Just different. Silva is more Aesthetically pleasing, and DeBryune is more effective. Silva is more inclusive of teammates, DeBryune is more destructive of opponents. Silva ows the game down, DeBryune speeds it up.

No, but it totally effects the way the whole team play. If Ya Ya, De Bruyne, Both wingers and both full backs are pushed forward and De Bruyne loses the ball cheaply, the whole team is fucked. That's my entire point, playing De Bruyne centrally is alien to the team. Not to De Bruyne but to the team.
De Bruyne is totally different to Silva, no one can argue that. So to swap those players but keep everything else the same is simply stupid. Unfortunately something Pellegrini is stupid enough to do.

Swapping Silva with De Bruyne is daft, I simply don't understand how anyone can advocate that. They are totally different players with totally different skill sets. There nothing to suggest they can't play together though.
There's also nothing to suggest he can't adapt to that role, but would anyone advocate trying more new things this this season? We already look a mess, without trying to change the entire way we play.

 

[daztrueblue91]

It's not been "pointed out to me multiple times" pal because my point is not that De Bruyne is directly responsible for us conceding goals.

I merely pointed out earlier that the team was playing better at the start of the season without De Bruyne in it. A regular poster, who's a well known wum, claimed it was hyperbole to suggest we were better without De Bruyne in the side. My post that you quoted wasn't intended as catch-all analysis, it was simply a rebuttal to the "Hyperbole" accusation.

You're quite right, maybe the squad were more fresh, maybe it's all Sterling's fault, maybe it's the dreadful weather we're having, but I'm sure you're intelligent enough to accept, maybe it's because the team was more balanced then?

It's clearly a combination of factors why we are out of form. I'm not for one minute suggesting that De Bruyne is directly at fault for all of our problems, of course I'm not.

My point is that our best form has come at the start of the season, before De Bruyne was signed. It's inarguable that it was our best period of form. Yes the weather was better etc, but the team also had balance. It functioned as a footballing unit. We can't test whether it's the weather, freshness etc that is unbalancing the team, so that's all speculative.

What we can do is try to play that same front 4 we started the season with and see if it works. I doubt the bad weather will turn it from a perfectly functioning machine in to a calamitous mess. My view is let's try it for 3 or 4 games. We know it worked in the summer, maybe it won't work in the winter, but let's try, because what we're going for at the moment isn't working is it?

My point is the best team doesn't necessarily need to have the best 11 footballers. A good recent example is Ibrahimovic at Barca. He cost 60m, the most expensive in Barca's history. Was he a better player than Pedro? Undoubtedly. Did the team function better with Ibra or Pedro in it? I'll leave you to decide.

Looking at the overall picture, we are in a very good position in the league and I would consider us favourites at this moment. This is all whilst IMO we have been poor ever since the first 5 games of the season. For one reason or another this team has not clicked this season and the fact that we are playing well beneath our potential is a huge factor in why many fans, including myself, get so annoyed.

My take on the whole situation is that we have a team full of square pegs in round holes. It's a situation that could easily be remedied but it would mean Pellegrini making some unpopular decisions. The Silva Vs KDB debate is a by product of a fundamental flaw that is hindering our performances. To put it simply, KDB and Silva cannot both play their natural game and perform to their max in the same side. However, my take on the issue is that Silva is the problem not KDB.

Silva is by far the best player to ever grace the light blue shirt. That said his natural game is to dictate the tempo of a game and run the game, often at a slow pace, something that KDB and Sterling are not comfortable with. Far too often he slows the game right down when we should be going for the jugular of sides, attacking them with the pace of Kun and Sterling.

Both of Kun's goals against West Ham came from attacking teams with pace, drawing players in and him either having space in the box or being isolated with a defender. They were scored when we played with a higher tempo. Even a route one long ball led to him hitting the post. I cant see any logical reason why we would want to play a slow tempo game with Kun as a lone striker, it takes away all of his natural instincts.

A few years ago when Yaya was roaming up and down the pitch, Silva could link up with Nasri and Yaya, and Kun had a strike partner then we could play at a slower tempo and draw the opposition in. However, it doesn't take a chief scout to realise that Sterling and KDB are direct players. I'd be amazed if we signed them based on their ability to keep the ball.

We need to encourage Silva to speed our play up, take a deeper position and allow the movement of the forward players to create space. At the moment a common theme in our season is working the ball into a crossing position and only having Kun in the box because Silva and the winger have intricately created space and Yaya hasn't got the legs to get in there.

 

[Shaelumstash]

No, but it totally effects the way the whole team play. If Ya Ya, De Bruyne, Both wingers and both full backs are pushed forward and De Bruyne loses the ball cheaply, the whole team is fucked. That's my entire point, playing De Bruyne centrally is alien to the team. Not to De Bruyne but to the team.
De Bruyne is totally different to Silva, no one can argue that. So to swap those players but keep everything else the same is simply stupid. Unfortunately something Pellegrini is stupid enough to do.

Swapping Silva with De Bruyne is daft, I simply don't understand how anyone can advocate that. They are totally different players with totally different skill sets. There nothing to suggest they can't play together though.
There's also nothing to suggest he can't adapt to that role, but would anyone advocate trying more new things this this season? We already look a mess, without trying to change the entire way we play.

I completely agree. Anyone who is suggesting swapping Silva for De Bruyne as a number 10 is a like for like swap are completely misguided.

There seems to be two main trains of thought about playing De Bruyne centrally; 1. that he's got good assists stats for us 2. That he played there for Wolfsburg.

Both of these opinions are completely flawed.

1. His assists stats have come for us when playing wide. More specifically, they've come when he's played wide and Silva has played centrally.

2. Wolfsburg played on the counter attack, and his high risk style was ideally suited to them. City don't play like that because teams overwhelmingly sit back against us, which makes them impossible to counter.

De Bruyne may well have the tools to play as a number 10 for some teams. But that's very different from having the tools to play number 10 for this City team.

Everyone slaughtered Pellegrini for playing 442 last season. We need an extra midfielder they said. We need to keep the ball better in midfield they said. The same people are now saying drop Silva and play De Bruyne as a 10. This in spite of the fact De Bruyne is lousy at retaining possession!

A major purpose of playing someone as a 10 is to retain possession better and not get outnumbered in the middle of the park. If De Bruyne doesn't keep the ball very well, why play him there? Because he scored some goals and gets some assists? Well if that's all he's there for, wouldn't we be better just playing another forward and going back to 442?!

The ideal number 10 for us is someone who retains possession, dictates play and can also play brilliant creative passes to open team up. His name is David Silva.

 

[B\connellblue]

I have seen nothing so far to suggest he could lace Silvas boots let alone fill them.

 

[Dax777]

Funny. My point is that the team was better when Silva went central. You are somehow trying to argue against that point by saying De Bruyne played better in the middle than Silva did on the right?! Haha! Can you not see the obvious flaw in your logic??

Dude you are not very good at this. Here is what you said:

1. Newcastle he started the game as a playmaker in the first 25 minutes and Silva was on the right. It was the worst City performance since the takeover, the team was getting booed. De Bruyne was diabolical in the first 25 minutes. So muchso, that the manager swapped De Bruyne and Silva, so De Bruyne went to right wing and Silva moved in the middleand played as the playmaker. We scored 6 goals in 20minutes. With Silva as the playmaker.

My response was meant to expose 2 of many factual inaccuracies in the above statement. I.E. the ones relevant to DeBryune.

1. That DeBryune was 'diabolical' in the first 25 minutes ( this is why I list DeBryune's attributes and actions in the first 25 minutes.)

2. You supported your claim that of him being 'diabolical' by pointing out the coach had to switch him out of the position for Silva. (I then chronicle Silva's 25 minutes to show that it was more likely his poor defensive suppot play on the wing nessitated the switch and not DeBryune's 'diabolical' play at CAM).
Thus, dicrediting your claim and its support argument that DeBryune was 'diabolical' and the coach switched him because of it.

I ignore other innacuracies like ' worst game since takeover' I reckon you were just being hyperbolic. But either way it wasn't particularly relevant to this thread.


As for the rest:

If you want to have a debate about who was better in the first 25 minutes of that game, that's a completely different discussion. Frankly, both of them were poor in the opening 25 minutes, I'd agree Silva was partly culpable for the goal, so if it makes you feel strong, let's say I agree, De Bruyne was better than Silva in the opening 25 minutes.

Now let's get back to the actual debate, was the team better with Silva as the central playmaker, or with De Bruyne as the central playmaker? Go and look at the stats if you wish (CLUE: we were 1-0 down with De Bruyne central, and won 6-1 after Silva went central)

Again, this was not the argument, let's remember why you made the initial claim I debunked.

You were arguing with someoneelse that DeBryune has never played well at 'playmaker' position. And were trying to show he was terrible at it against Newcastle. Hence your 'diabolical' and 'so much so' claims.
As it turns out neither claim is true, he wasn't 'diabolical' nor was he moved coz of it.

As for the score when he was there vs when he wasn't playing there as proof Silva played better at CAM, its a silly comparison and an argument you'd never find me in.

There are multiple issues there. And I don't think you are rigorous enough to get into them. You strike me as more of a generalities guy. Rather than strict and fact specific.

And just for the avoidance of doubt, I was screaming at Pellegrini to swap Silva and De Bruyne after about 10 minutes in that game. The team was diabolical in that opening 25 minutes, if you don't believe me, simply ask anyone who was there, or even better, check out the match day thread if you wish. I think that's one of the things you and BS struggle to understand, it is the responsibility of the playmaker to help the team play.

I see you have backtracked a bit now, you now only think the 'team' was 'diabolical.' This is good.

But let me do you one better than asking someone who was there: Here is a link to the first 25 minutes and more. Take some time and watch, stop relying on faulty memories.
http://www.fullmatchesandshows.com/...-vs-newcastle-united-highlights-full-match/#7

You can thank me later.

 

[Shaelumstash]

Looking at the overall picture, we are in a very good position in the league and I would consider us favourites at this moment. This is all whilst IMO we have been poor ever since the first 5 games of the season. For one reason or another this team has not clicked this season and the fact that we are playing well beneath our potential is a huge factor in why many fans, including myself, get so annoyed.

My take on the whole situation is that we have a team full of square pegs in round holes. It's a situation that could easily be remedied but it would mean Pellegrini making some unpopular decisions. The Silva Vs KDB debate is a by product of a fundamental flaw that is hindering our performances. To put it simply, KDB and Silva cannot both play their natural game and perform to their max in the same side. However, my take on the issue is that Silva is the problem not KDB.

Silva is by far the best player to ever grace the light blue shirt. That said his natural game is to dictate the tempo of a game and run the game, often at a slow pace, something that KDB and Sterling are not comfortable with. Far too often he slows the game right down when we should be going for the jugular of sides, attacking them with the pace of Kun and Sterling.

Both of Kun's goals against West Ham came from attacking teams with pace, drawing players in and him either having space in the box or being isolated with a defender. They were scored when we played with a higher tempo. Even a route one long ball led to him hitting the post. I cant see any logical reason why we would want to play a slow tempo game with Kun as a lone striker, it takes away all of his natural instincts.

A few years ago when Yaya was roaming up and down the pitch, Silva could link up with Nasri and Yaya, and Kun had a strike partner then we could play at a slower tempo and draw the opposition in. However, it doesn't take a chief scout to realise that Sterling and KDB are direct players. I'd be amazed if we signed them based on their ability to keep the ball.

We need to encourage Silva to speed our play up, take a deeper position and allow the movement of the forward players to create space. At the moment a common theme in our season is working the ball into a crossing position and only having Kun in the box because Silva and the winger have intricately created space and Yaya hasn't got the legs to get in there.

Thanks for your post mate. It's refreshing to read a post by someone who has actually thought out and considered his post instead of just spewing out nonsense and trying in vain to get a rise out of people.

The thing I'm surprised about is that on the one hand you suggest the first 5 games were our best form of the season, and on the other hand you suggest Silva should be dropped as he slows us down and isn't direct enough.

I agree that the first 5 games is the only time we've looked like Champions. However, for me, Silva was absolutely crucial in all of those games. He was in the form of his life, running the show. West Brom away is the best I've ever seen him play. Everton away he was absolutely outstanding as well.

The whole team functioned around him, it looked like a well oiled machine that was going to cruise to the title. You couldn't have accused Silva of slowing down the play during those first 5 games, surely? It was quite the opposite, he was dictating play, setting the tempo. The reason he was able to do this is because he had real pace and width in front of him.

Navas wide right, Sterling wide left, Kun through the middle. All players with pace, directness, playing on the shoulder. Navas obviously sticks wide and isn't a goal thread. But simply by staying wide he dragged the full back wide, creating space for Aguero to exploit.

Sterling wide left, yes he's direct and doesn't keep possession as well as Navas, but his movement is superb, so dangerous. Again, his pace frightened teams to death, and the link up play between Sterling, Kolarov and Silva early on in the season was superb. The triangle down the left hand side is where our most dangerous play came from. Far from being slow, the pace and directness of Sterling was a major weapon for us.

One of the major reasons that this system worked is because the pace of Navas and Sterling playing wide left the centre of the pitch free for Silva. He had a huge amount of space. If the opposing defensive midfielder tried to mark him, he's simply drop deeper, drop wide right, wide left, wherever the space was, he'd find it.

Recently, with De Bruyne playing as one of the wide players, he drifts inside a lot. This crowds the middle of the pitch, meaning there is less space, and it's very easy to mark Silva out of the game. Look at the Arsenal and West Ham games as an example. The middle is so crowded that there is absolutely no space for Silva to get on the ball and dictate. He can't drop deep or wide right because De Bruyne is already occupying that space.

Also, because we haven't got wide players pushed right on, it makes it very easy for team to just defend deep and narrow. That makes it very difficult for us to find gaps in the back 4, create chances and score goals. It makes it far more difficult for Aguero to find space.

I agree we need to play at a higher tempo, and create more chances. But playing Navas and Sterling wide will do both of those things. Silva can play at whatever tempo he chooses to, but he needs runners. He needs pace in front of him. He needs wide players to stretch back 4s. De Bruyne doesn't do any of those things, but Navas does.

There are periods of games where we need to slow it down, keep possession, make teams chase the ball, wear them out, break them down. De Bruyne simply doesn't have in his game.

 

[jimmygrimblesboots]

My apologies. I think Manuel picks his players based on who actually is best for the team. And while my opinion on who is best may sometimes differ from his, I still believe be picks his team based on who he thinks is best. Just like anyone of above basic intelligence would.



T

So disappointed , thought i got myself a troll , Yaya Toure has played some really terrible games and has stayed on the pitch , not because he is performing the best , but because he could turn a game in a moment of brilliance , West Ham was a fine example Delph who was arguably our best midfield player and was subbed , when Yaya was contributing next to nothing , MP is relying on the brilliance of individuals to win/ draw games instead of trying to play and win as a team . You do not have to be Albert Einstein to see this , but he also probably new f*ck all about football.

 

[Shaelumstash]

Dude you are not very good at this. Here is what you said:


My response was meant to expose 2 of many factual inaccuracies in the above statement. I.E. the ones relevant to DeBryune.

1. That DeBryune was 'diabolical' in the first 25 minutes ( this is why I list DeBryune's attributes and actions in the first 25 minutes.)

2. You supported your claim that of him being 'diabolical' by pointing out the coach had to switch him out of the position for Silva. (I then chronicle Silva's 25 minutes to show that it was more likely his poor defensive suppot play on the wing nessitated the switch and not DeBryune's 'diabolical' play at CAM).
Thus, dicrediting your claim and its support argument that DeBryune was 'diabolical' and the coach switched him because of it.

I ignore other innacuracies like ' worst game since takeover' I reckon you were just being hyperbolic. But either way it wasn't particularly relevant to this thread.


As for the rest:


Again, this was not the argument, let's remember why you made the initial claim I debunked.

You were arguing with someoneelse that DeBryune has never played well at 'playmaker' position. And were trying to show he was terrible at it against Newcastle. Hence your 'diabolical' and 'so much so' claims.
As it turns out neither claim is true, he wasn't 'diabolical' nor was he moved coz of it.

As for the score when he was there vs when he wasn't playing there as proof Silva played better at CAM, its a silly comparison and an argument you'd never find me in.

There are multiple issues there. And I don't think you are rigorous enough to get into them. You strike me as more of a generalities guy. Rather than strict and fact specific.



I see you have backtracked a bit now, you now only think the 'team' was 'diabolical.' This is good.

But let me do you one better than asking someone who was there: Here is a link to the first 25 minutes and more. Take some time and watch, stop relying on faulty memories.
http://www.fullmatchesandshows.com/...-vs-newcastle-united-highlights-full-match/#7

You can thank me later.

Jesus, you're like the human version of genital warts, no one wants you and you just keep coming back anyway.

I've not "backtracked" at all. I never suggested the team were excellent in the first 25 minutes. De Bruyne being poor and the team being poor are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they are very much related.

You seem like a stats guy. A Football Manager expert. I doubt you have ever played an 11 a side game of football outside in the fresh air. I think you probably prefer the simulated version. Because you see, the stats will only give you so much information. They will not tell you about the intricacies of the game. That's why someone like De Bruyne will be a favourite of someone like you. You don't understand the game, you just understand the stats. So when the stats look good, to you it means he is good. You can't differentiate between a good performance and a good stat, because to you they are one and the same thing.

There are a couple of examples of people with your mindset being involved in football. One was Damian Comolli at Liverpool. Trying to adopt the Moneyball approach to football. I'm sorry to break it to you, but it doesn't work. Football is too fluid, too intricate to only rely on statistics. There isn't a top football club in the world that signs players based solely on stats. Liverpool tried it, and it failed. The way top clubs operate is to trust in the expertise of the people they employ.

You see what a stat won't tell you is that throughout that first 25 minutes De Bruyne often chose the wrong pass. They won't show you that he was constantly static and not moving in to space. They won't tell you De Bruyne wasn't on the half turn when receiving the ball, he wasn't comfortable receiving the ball with his back to goal. They won't tell you that Silva for the last 5 years does as much work off the ball, away from the camera. His movement to get in to space, to give an outlet to the defence and midfield is how many of our attacks start. They won't tell you that De Bruyne was diabolical at doing this for those 25 minutes, he rarely made space for himself, showed feet, was an available outlet.

Feel free to watch your clip to try to look for those things, but unfortunately you can't often see them on videos. That's why scouts attend games, and sit up in the stands. So they can see movement off the ball, pattern of play. They are probably completely alien concepts to you, but that's how football works, particularly at the top level.

So to answer your point, yes I trust my eyes more than the stats. So do the decision makers in football. It's only fanboys and computer nerds who rely on stats alone.

 

[Dax777]

No, but it totally effects the way the whole team play. If Ya Ya, De Bruyne, Both wingers and both full backs are pushed forward and De Bruyne loses the ball cheaply, the whole team is fucked. That's my entire point, playing De Bruyne centrally is alien to the team. Not to De Bruyne but to the team.
De Bruyne is totally different to Silva, no one can argue that. So to swap those players but keep everything else the same is simply stupid. Unfortunately something Pellegrini is stupid enough to do.

Swapping Silva with De Bruyne is daft, I simply don't understand how anyone can advocate that. They are totally different players with totally different skill sets. There nothing to suggest they can't play together though.
There's also nothing to suggest he can't adapt to that role, but would anyone advocate trying more new things this this season? We already look a mess, without trying to change the entire way we play.

I think part of the reason we labor so much to break teams down is because we have players who often move the ball slowly. If we move it faster from defense to offense we will break teams down more often.

By the way DeBryune doesn't lose the ball as much now as he did when he first arrived. I reckon his completion rate would rangebtw 80-83% once he is fully integrated.. Because he will always take more risks. Since the turn of the year his passing has been at 81%. Probably where it would stay. Is he as good as Silva at ball retention? No. does he need to be to play CAM effectively? No.