Kevin De Bruyne 2016/17

[KDBestplayerintheworld]

The whole "can Silva & De Bruyne play together" argument which seems to be developping is remarkably similar to the debate that existed for a long time (and maybe still exists) in the Belgian national team about Hazard & De Bruyne.

The questions were exactly the same: 1. can they play together? 2. aren't they limiting each other's space & potential? 3. if they play together, who should be on the wings and who should play central? etc.

Only difference is, in the Belgian national team Hazard was seen as the key issue (should he be dropped? should he be limited to very specific instructions?) rather than De Bruyne, because the latter was and is responsible for +50% of all Belgian goals either by scoring or assisting (daft stat really) while the former struggled to score any other goals than penalties (much like his Chelsea issue) and hardly ever provides assists.

Now, maybe City can learn from the things that have been tried in Belgium to make it work. Which is not to say that Hazard & Silva are similar players, because I don't think that's true, but they both are influential players who want to dictate the game. And so is De Bruyne.

At one time Wilmots tried to resolve the issue by keeping both players as far away from each other as possible: Hazard out on the left & De Bruyne out on the right and a mediocre playmaker to keep them seperated in the middle (Fellaini, Chadli ...) I think it would be similar to posting David on the left and De Bruyne on the right and seperating them by placing Yaya in the middle. For Belgium it didn't work.

What happened was, Hazard & De Bruyne both being the most naturally gifted players of the team very much liking linking up with each other, and so they'd both cut inside to find each other in the middle leaving the flanks unused and the role of the replacing playmaker as redundant.

Taking into account the stats (goals, assists, key passes) Wilmots has now decided that De Bruyne should be our indisputed playmaker and Hazard has been pushed out left. It seems to be working in the last couple of matches (latter part of our qualification campaign). I think the key issue here was to be really clear towards the players. Hazard knows now that De Bruyne is the one & only playmaker and he shouldn't stake a claim to that position anymore. In a way it has liberated both players. Hazard now scoring more often for Belgium as well (and not from the penalty spot).

In the first stage where they were both alternated as playmaker both wanted to prove that they were best in that position which wasn't good for the team. I believe this is now the exact stage where City is at. In my opinion no good can come from it.

In the second stage, both pushed out to the flanks, they both cut inside still trying to stake a claim at that playmaker role. In my opinion that was the worst episode for the team, having no more width at all and total chaos in the build-up play. Let's hope City will not fall into the same trap.

So the 3rd and hopefully final stage is to just select either one as playmaker and turn the other into a winger. I strongly believe this solution would also work best for City. From a personal point of view, I think it would make more sense here to appoint Silva as playmaker and De Bruyne as winger. Once KDB has accepted that role I think he'll grow into it, start providing more width and throw in those deadly crosses.

I hope these insights from past experience can be of help.

 

[KDBestplayerintheworld]

Your opinion is that you can watch a Youtube video 3 months later and look at some Opta pass completion stats and have as good an analysis as someone who was at the game and could see all of the movement off the ball. You're wrong, and that's why you've got a fundamental misunderstanding of the game.

To state the contrary is actually quite absurd. Agreed, there's nothing like the live experience. But you can't argue seriously that you can do a better match analysis in the stadium with a flat view of the pitch, chanting supporters breathing down your neck, than watching it in the privacy of your own home where you can see the game from all angles, watch replays, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I prefer the live experience as well, but it's not intended for analysis.
Personally I will record any game that I go and watch live just to see the whole match again afterwards so I can see what actually happened on the pitch.
Admittedly, I am a bit obsessed with football.

 

[schfc6]

While I have sympathy for Navas and by no means want to state that he's a "bad player" (I don't think there are bad players in the Premier League), I think it's hard to see past the facts that his stats are too underwhelming for an attacking player (0 PL goals over the past two seasons and only a handful of assists) and the qualiy of his crosses are just too poor.

What he does provide is pace and width, and maybe that allows other players to score and assist more than they otherwise would, but that's hard to measure. I don't know if anyone has stats of team goals per match scored with or without Navas?
Anyway, I simply think it's not enough for a team like City who have the ambition to compete with the likes of Barcelona & Bayern Munich.

I do understand the comment that you just want to make the most out of this season, but imo Navas in for De Bruyne won't win City more points, quite the contrary, even if De Bruyne has a lot to improve in terms of team connection.

As I say, De Bruyne is clearly a better player than Navas.
I disagree that teams don't have functional players, players that are there for the team for he better of the team. Did you know Rafina is one of Pep's most used players?
That's stats and win percentage when Navas start are very impressive. You're right it's not what he demes personally in terms of goals or assists, but how much better the team performs with him in it.
Do I prefer the flair and productivity of Kev to watch? Yes. But so far the team performs at its best with Navas in it.

The sad fact is, we do win more points with Navas in the team.

 

[schfc6]

No you idiot, I am saying that pass completion (ball retention) can easily be misconstrued. If a defender takes no risks and just ensures he gives it to a midfielder or full back, then his pass completion stats will be higher than most attacking players.

I don't always agree with Billy, but he doesn't come across has a clown to me, unlike you.

You don't seem to realise there are many different sort of play makers.

I haven't questioned Silva's end product. Once again your trying to makes things up to support your stupid theories.

Now please don't bother quoting me again.

Hang on? You're calling me an idiot? You're joking right? Your post is truely idiotic, go back and read it again.
I'm not comparing De Bruyne with defenders I'm comparing him to our entire front line, Ya Ya, Fernandinho, Silva, Aguero even Navas & Sterling. He's way down on all of them.

By the way, when you're labelling people idiots, it's probably best if you know what you're talking about. Our defenders statistically give the ball away more than all of our attacking players, asides from one player, guess who?

So again I'm comparing De Bruyne with players in direct competion with him, not centre backs. He is way worse.

As for Billy, you've sided with someone who doesn't think there's much difference between 77% and 86% in ball retention. And used De Bruyne's 77% as an example that he doesn't give it away. It's the lowest in our squad. It's nearly 10% worse than Silva, Aguero, Ya Ya and Fernandinho.

There's no way round his, no matter what you think, or who you call an idiot. De Bruyne's ball retention stats are awful, ESPECIALLY compared with his direct rivals in attacking positions. Not centre backs.

 

[KDBestplayerintheworld]

That's stats and win percentage when Navas start are very impressive. You're right it's not what he demes personally in terms of goals or assists, but how much better the team performs with him in it.
Do I prefer the flair and productivity of Kev to watch? Yes. But so far the team performs at its best with Navas in it.

The sad fact is, we do win more points with Navas in the team.

I haven't seen the actual stats on this, but I am even willing to believe it's true or possible. For me however, that should be the indicator for Pellegrini to try and make it work as good as possible with De Bruyne as well, rather than giving up on an incredibly talent and settle for a vastly inferior player. It is short term vs long term imo. Yes, City could struggle for a bit trying to adapt to Kev's style of play and it may even cost them some points, but in the long run I'm quite convinced it's the only way to make City truely challenge Europe's elite. Even if it could put the current season at risk, but I fully understand if that's your main priority.

 

[schfc6]

I haven't seen the actual stats on this, but I am even willing to believe it's true or possible. For me however, that should be the indicator for Pellegrini to try and make it work as good as possible with De Bruyne as well, rather than giving up on an incredibly talent and settle for a vastly inferior player. It is short term vs long term imo. Yes, City could struggle for a bit trying to adapt to Kev's style of play and it may even cost them some points, but in the long run I'm quite convinced it's the only way to make City truely challenge Europe's elite. Even if it could put the current season at risk, but I fully understand if that's your main priority.

But Pellegrini only has 4 months left. I'm personally not interested in Silva, De Bruyne, Navas or Sagna. I'm interested in Manchester City, I don't support a player. I want us to win the league. Am I ? Or have I ever suggested to just send De Bruyne on loan or banish him to the reserves? No. I'm suggesting we need to put the best team on the pitch. The team with the best chance of winning. In many games that will include De Bruyne.

For me though, and this is relevant to the actual topic, De Bruyne has done nothing to deserve an automatic start in our team. I personally don't believe it's simply a coincidence that our best performances have come without him. Can he be involved in our future best performances? I hope so.

 

[Shaelumstash]

To state the contrary is actually quite absurd. Agreed, there's nothing like the live experience. But you can't argue seriously that you can do a better match analysis in the stadium with a flat view of the pitch, chanting supporters breathing down your neck, than watching it in the privacy of your own home where you can see the game from all angles, watch replays, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I prefer the live experience as well, but it's not intended for analysis.
Personally I will record any game that I go and watch live just to see the whole match again afterwards so I can see what actually happened on the pitch.
Admittedly, I am a bit obsessed with football.

I like your posts mate and think you come up with some good stuff. I'm going to have to disagree with you in terms of how best to analyse a game though.

Watching on TV and YouTube is great. I usually watch a game back when we have won. Sometimes you might notice the odd thing you missed at the game, a slight deflection, an incrorrect offside etc that you can only see with the benefit of a replay.

But in terms of pattern of play, team shape, pass selection, movement off the ball, these are things you can only truly appreciate from being at the game and sat in a seat with a good enough vantage point to see the whole pitch.

That's why scouts go and watch players in person. If they could get a better analysis of a player from a multi angle TV broadcast, scouts and Director's of Football would never leave the office. They'd just watch a series of videos, and it would be much more efficient.

I think it's watching Silva in person for the last 5 years that has given many City fans such a huge appreciation of his talents. It's his subtle movements in to space off the ball that helps make him so special. He is always looking for the ball, to be an outlet.

From the stands you can see where the intelligent pass is, where the ball should go next. The lousy players usually don't give it where they should, and you get groans from the crowd. The good players, like Yaya for example, play the pass you think they should make, the right pass. But special players like Silva make passes you can't even see from the stands. His vision is so good that he spots passes it's difficult for the fan to even imagine.

You could never appreciate those subtleties from watching on TV. I think that is a big reason why the casual football fan doesn't appreciate Silva as much as the match going City fan. It's impossible to appreciate his game from a highlight reel, you have to appreciate the whole game and see his and other players movement off the ball and how he knits the whole team together.

That's why I'm so adament about De Bruyne's performance in the first 25 minutes against Newcastle. I was quite surprised about your comment to Dax about him being "good" by analysing a game based on stats and a YouTube clip.

I was at the game, and it was De Bruyne's lack of movement off the ball that was the issue. His lack of creating angles and giving options to other players, his lack of being an outlet to knit the whole team together. When he and Silva switched, David instantly got in to his old rhythms, finding space, showing feet, knitting the team together and making us a unit. A cohesive team. All of the stats and YouTube clips in the world will not give you that insight. You'd have to be in the stands to have a true interpretation.

Far from "good" I find Dax's analysis short sighted and naive. And being a football man I'm surprised you disagree.

 

[KDBestplayerintheworld]

For me though, and this is relevant to the actual topic, De Bruyne has done nothing to deserve an automatic start in our team.

I think no one, not even Messi, deserves an "automatic" start for that matter.
De Bruyne doesn't have to play all of the time either for me, I'm just saying that she should definitely be above Navas in the general picking order.
I was also stating that it would be in the best interest for Man City in the long term to challenge for Europe's Elite - not JUST cause I like to watch De Bruyne play.

 

[KDBestplayerintheworld]

That's why scouts go and watch players in person. If they could get a better analysis of a player from a multi angle TV broadcast, scouts and Director's of Football would never leave the office. They'd just watch a series of videos, and it would be much more efficient.

I think you'd be quite amazed with the number of players that are bought based on video material alone.
It doesn't happen the other way around: players (in the top leagues) are never bought based on live scouting only. Scouts will prepare reports & videos for the club's decision makers, and then they will decide to buy yes or no.
Scouts from top teams will usually not sit in the stands either, they will often be (if possible accomodation wise) to be in an isolated box high up the stadium to have a view as clear as possible and not be influenced by fans opinions around them.
Reason I know this is that I am acquainted with a former Chelsea scout (eighties and nineties) who now lives in Belgium for a number of years already and likes telling story about those days. I don't want to brag about that or anything but just thought it 'd be relevant to make my point.

I do agree that live watching is perfectly suited to see general patterns and get a general feeling of who performed well and if the team is playing bad or good. In depth analysis however is not for live watching and it simply cannot be argued.

 

[Phil1]

To state the contrary is actually quite absurd. Agreed, there's nothing like the live experience. But you can't argue seriously that you can do a better match analysis in the stadium with a flat view of the pitch, chanting supporters breathing down your neck, than watching it in the privacy of your own home where you can see the game from all angles, watch replays, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I prefer the live experience as well, but it's not intended for analysis.
Personally I will record any game that I go and watch live just to see the whole match again afterwards so I can see what actually happened on the pitch.
Admittedly, I am a bit obsessed with football.

You can't watch 'from all angles' on the tv though, that's the whole point. You can watch where the camera goes and that's it. You miss the multitude of off the ball runs and movement that take place, especially if you're higher up in the ground where you can see a perfect overview of what's going on right across the pitch.
The rest of this argument has become tough going. Kevin is an exceptional footballer in his first six months at the club. He's been exceptional at times and struggled at others. Right now that's where we are with him. Moving forwards it's abundantly clear we've got ourselves a gem - now we just need somebody to come in and get the best out of him, regardless the position.