Lancashire CCC

Corky

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eshiers1 said:
lancs on the box today in a big game that will decide where the title goes

come on lancs and let somerset win the championship!

2005 t20 final, glad Notts won after that.
 

es1

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Corky said:
eshiers1 said:
lancs on the box today in a big game that will decide where the title goes

come on lancs and let somerset win the championship!

2005 t20 final, glad Notts won after that.

i quite like somerset, even after that game

notts did very well to score 400 yesterday, shame we couldnt make it more interesting by holding out a little longer but hey ho

they certainly made the right choice, to go for the bonus points instead of setting up a result, i thought they wouldnt have time for the former!
 

crystal_mais

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Shands said:
There’s some very valid points being made but for what it’s worth I don’t think we’re in as bad a shape as is coming across. It’s generally accepted that thanks to two divsions the County Championship is now a strong competition and that the depth in the English pool is as good as it’s been for some time. Now if we can all sit here and see numerous frailties in our team and yet were still up there challenging the top sides then surely that’s a good thing? As I said before if our low ebb still has us up where it matters, then imagine what it’ll be like when we rectify these issues!

I agree completely that the batting from the top order this summer has not been acceptable by any means and needs to be addressed. Horton has been poor the last two seasons but the two summers previous to that he was excellent (his struggles in the championship seem to have coincided with him playing all forms of cricket which is ironic given his very good record in CB40 this year). Hopefully hard work over the winter will see a return to form from him.

For his part Croft has had a good season and more importantly scored runs at times where we’ve really needed them. Chilton and Moore I have my doubts about and Smith should not be batting any higher than 6 or 7. On the plus side though I read the 2ndxi reports on the Lancs fans forum and Brown, Proctor, Goodwin, Agathangelou, Perry and Bentley all seem to have shown enough to suggest there is talent there if they can be given the chance.
Cross is now getting his opportunity in the side and is performing well. His attitude as an aggressive keeper batsmen could be just the fresh approach the side needs, plus as m27 says it’ll free up space in the 2’s for someone like Joe Davies to get experience.

We’re well covered for spin with Parry, Kerrigan and Lilley all showing enough to suggest that Keedy shouldn’t leave a huge hole when he calls it a day.

The area that does concern me is the seam bowling. I really can’t see how Chapple can go on much longer and he will be a huge loss. Anderson looks to be entrenched with England for the foreseeable future so what options does that leave? Mahmood is very frustrating but still generally at championship level a decent enough performer (and now chipping in with runs). Hogg and Smith are useful 3rd or 4th seamers/all rounders but in no way leaders of the attack. I don’t see Montgomery, Newby, Powell or Cheetham as real options and unfortunately I’m not aware of much coming up behind them, although I read Mohammed Abid is promising. If we need to invest in one area then I think this would be it. Up until the last week I would have suggested trying to get in Mohammed Aamer as the overseas player but obviously that’s a non starter now.

More than anything I think what we lack is not talent but a psychological edge, that self belief that comes from winning when it matters. In the 90’s the side had a swagger and intimidated the opposition because no situation felt insurmountable. This team doesn’t have players who have experienced seizing the big moments and winning when the pressure is on. This is where the ongoing fitness situation with Flintoff is interesting. If he could get healthy enough even just to bat (and sadly I have my doubts he will), I think he could galvanise this side in the same way Akram did. In the past Fred has been there with England and done it when it matters and I could actually see him as a captain who would relax the others and fill them with real energy and belief. I suspect the likes of Croft, Cross and Parry would thrive off him because they strike me as having the right mentality.

Finance is going to have a big part to play too. All the counties seem to be up against it just now but that may work in our favour as if there’s no money to recruit out with the county then we’ll be forced to promote from within and give these younger lads their opportunity. The more exposure they can get at a young age the more chance they have to learn and develop that winning mentality we need, rather than stagnating and becoming demoralised in a 2xi comfort zone. Also because of finances some tough decisions may need to be made. If Flintoff and even Chapple and Keedy are struggling fitness wise, they’re unlikely to improve much and at their age should perhaps be moved out to free up a sizeable chunk of the wage bill. It could be a case of taking 2 big steps back to in time take 4 forward.

I sense the next few months could be interesting regardless....and at least we're not Surrey ;-)

Not a bad assessment on the club. there are some very promising young cricketers in the ranks.

Mo Abid is a leg Spinner is still some distance away from professional ranks. I've seen him play club cricket for the last 5 years and mentally he is still some distance away. Luke Procter is one that I think will go far. I have played cricket against him since he was 14/15 and he has always shown great talent, he has taken that to another level through hard work. He is now consistent as a pro and ready of the next level.

Brown needs to be given a run of games to see if he is capable of doing the biz. Great club and 2nd team cricketer. Cheetham is a good bowler and needs a chance. I would also give Rob Wooley of Hyde a good run in the 2nds.

The club need to plan for the long term. They need a good overseas (ie Shiv or Langer type) to provide the maturity and example of work ethic required to succeed.

It's gonna be a long road but at least we are not in the sort of turmoil that some clubs find themselves in.

Alot of the young lads once they get to counties take their foot of the pedal as they are most probably getting paid by the counties, on a drop from the club they represent and spend a fair amount of time getting bladdered with their mates in the UK during the season and over in Oz for the grade season.

They need to work alot harder to push to the next level.

I still like the Aussie Grade Model, where Grade A is probably equivalent to County Cricket. The players play at weekends and have to do a day job. Surely reducing Counties and generally making it harder to reach the top may push people to work that much harder thus improve the standard of cricketers available.
 

m27

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crystal_mais said:
Shands said:
There’s some very valid points being made but for what it’s worth I don’t think we’re in as bad a shape as is coming across. It’s generally accepted that thanks to two divsions the County Championship is now a strong competition and that the depth in the English pool is as good as it’s been for some time. Now if we can all sit here and see numerous frailties in our team and yet were still up there challenging the top sides then surely that’s a good thing? As I said before if our low ebb still has us up where it matters, then imagine what it’ll be like when we rectify these issues!

I agree completely that the batting from the top order this summer has not been acceptable by any means and needs to be addressed. Horton has been poor the last two seasons but the two summers previous to that he was excellent (his struggles in the championship seem to have coincided with him playing all forms of cricket which is ironic given his very good record in CB40 this year). Hopefully hard work over the winter will see a return to form from him.

For his part Croft has had a good season and more importantly scored runs at times where we’ve really needed them. Chilton and Moore I have my doubts about and Smith should not be batting any higher than 6 or 7. On the plus side though I read the 2ndxi reports on the Lancs fans forum and Brown, Proctor, Goodwin, Agathangelou, Perry and Bentley all seem to have shown enough to suggest there is talent there if they can be given the chance.
Cross is now getting his opportunity in the side and is performing well. His attitude as an aggressive keeper batsmen could be just the fresh approach the side needs, plus as m27 says it’ll free up space in the 2’s for someone like Joe Davies to get experience.

We’re well covered for spin with Parry, Kerrigan and Lilley all showing enough to suggest that Keedy shouldn’t leave a huge hole when he calls it a day.

The area that does concern me is the seam bowling. I really can’t see how Chapple can go on much longer and he will be a huge loss. Anderson looks to be entrenched with England for the foreseeable future so what options does that leave? Mahmood is very frustrating but still generally at championship level a decent enough performer (and now chipping in with runs). Hogg and Smith are useful 3rd or 4th seamers/all rounders but in no way leaders of the attack. I don’t see Montgomery, Newby, Powell or Cheetham as real options and unfortunately I’m not aware of much coming up behind them, although I read Mohammed Abid is promising. If we need to invest in one area then I think this would be it. Up until the last week I would have suggested trying to get in Mohammed Aamer as the overseas player but obviously that’s a non starter now.

More than anything I think what we lack is not talent but a psychological edge, that self belief that comes from winning when it matters. In the 90’s the side had a swagger and intimidated the opposition because no situation felt insurmountable. This team doesn’t have players who have experienced seizing the big moments and winning when the pressure is on. This is where the ongoing fitness situation with Flintoff is interesting. If he could get healthy enough even just to bat (and sadly I have my doubts he will), I think he could galvanise this side in the same way Akram did. In the past Fred has been there with England and done it when it matters and I could actually see him as a captain who would relax the others and fill them with real energy and belief. I suspect the likes of Croft, Cross and Parry would thrive off him because they strike me as having the right mentality.

Finance is going to have a big part to play too. All the counties seem to be up against it just now but that may work in our favour as if there’s no money to recruit out with the county then we’ll be forced to promote from within and give these younger lads their opportunity. The more exposure they can get at a young age the more chance they have to learn and develop that winning mentality we need, rather than stagnating and becoming demoralised in a 2xi comfort zone. Also because of finances some tough decisions may need to be made. If Flintoff and even Chapple and Keedy are struggling fitness wise, they’re unlikely to improve much and at their age should perhaps be moved out to free up a sizeable chunk of the wage bill. It could be a case of taking 2 big steps back to in time take 4 forward.

I sense the next few months could be interesting regardless....and at least we're not Surrey ;-)

Not a bad assessment on the club. there are some very promising young cricketers in the ranks.

Mo Abid is a leg Spinner is still some distance away from professional ranks. I've seen him play club cricket for the last 5 years and mentally he is still some distance away. Luke Procter is one that I think will go far. I have played cricket against him since he was 14/15 and he has always shown great talent, he has taken that to another level through hard work. He is now consistent as a pro and ready of the next level.

Brown needs to be given a run of games to see if he is capable of doing the biz. Great club and 2nd team cricketer. Cheetham is a good bowler and needs a chance. I would also give Rob Wooley of Hyde a good run in the 2nds.

The club need to plan for the long term. They need a good overseas (ie Shiv or Langer type) to provide the maturity and example of work ethic required to succeed.

It's gonna be a long road but at least we are not in the sort of turmoil that some clubs find themselves in.

Alot of the young lads once they get to counties take their foot of the pedal as they are most probably getting paid by the counties, on a drop from the club they represent and spend a fair amount of time getting bladdered with their mates in the UK during the season and over in Oz for the grade season.
They need to work alot harder to push to the next level.

I still like the Aussie Grade Model, where Grade A is probably equivalent to County Cricket. The players play at weekends and have to do a day job. Surely reducing Counties and generally making it harder to reach the top may push people to work that much harder thus improve the standard of cricketers available.

That bit is spot on mate. I've seen it time and time again, before they know it they're out on their ear and then regret it in later life.

It's no coincidence the Aussies play hard cricket and are tough mentally. Like you say, they have a job, have to make training 2-3 nights a week and then play hard cricket at the weekend.

We breed a lot of mentally weak cricketers. This is why Duncan Fletcher picked Geraint Jones over Chris Read despite Read having infinitely more ability. This is why James Foster, the best wicketkeeper in the world, won't play anymore Test Cricket because it is thought he isn't tough enough mentally. This is why Samit Patel won't get himself fit because he's quite happy plodding along in County cricket and excelling there.

The other goog thing about the Grade model is that no matter how old you are you still have a chance of playing at the highest level. In England you have the ridiculous situation where if you haven't got a contract by the age of 21 that's it, you have to resign yourself to a life outside of pro-cricket unless you get lucky. Cricket isn't like football, and a lot of the time you keep getting better and better with age becuse the experience is invaluable.

I was telling our Kiwi pro last year about my experiences and how the system worked and he was gob smacked. He was 25 but was still in the mix for top level cricket back home. Over here, he'd just be playing club cricket if he hadn't already made it.
 

crystal_mais

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Shands said:
That bit is spot on mate. I've seen it time and time again, before they know it they're out on their ear and then regret it in later life.

It's no coincidence the Aussies play hard cricket and are tough mentally. Like you say, they have a job, have to make training 2-3 nights a week and then play hard cricket at the weekend.

We breed a lot of mentally weak cricketers. This is why Duncan Fletcher picked Geraint Jones over Chris Read despite Read having infinitely more ability. This is why James Foster, the best wicketkeeper in the world, won't play anymore Test Cricket because it is thought he isn't tough enough mentally. This is why Samit Patel won't get himself fit because he's quite happy plodding along in County cricket and excelling there.

The other goog thing about the Grade model is that no matter how old you are you still have a chance of playing at the highest level. In England you have the ridiculous situation where if you haven't got a contract by the age of 21 that's it, you have to resign yourself to a life outside of pro-cricket unless you get lucky. Cricket isn't like football, and a lot of the time you keep getting better and better with age becuse the experience is invaluable.

I was telling our Kiwi pro last year about my experiences and how the system worked and he was gob smacked. He was 25 but was still in the mix for top level cricket back home. Over here, he'd just be playing club cricket if he hadn't already made it.

Absolutely bang on. I have played cricket at league standard for over 20 years now. I have played with and against some top quality pro's and overseas amatuers. The pros are at another level, but when you look at some of the overseas amatuers, they are far better than some of the county players. They are so hungry to win and achieve. They also know how to party but their focus and attitude to training is so different.

Some of our better players will lose a game and then be getting pissed having a laugh 20 minutes later. I know of current second team county players who spend most of the evening getting lashed while on 2nd team duty.

County players earn a decent living and it's easy for them. Put them out in the real world to get a job and fight for a decent cricket wage and we would see how many are still left fighting.

Any way some great points here. the single thing Lancs need to do is improve the standard of cricketer and if there are some potential players get them in the team.
 

m27

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crystal_mais said:
Shands said:
That bit is spot on mate. I've seen it time and time again, before they know it they're out on their ear and then regret it in later life.

It's no coincidence the Aussies play hard cricket and are tough mentally. Like you say, they have a job, have to make training 2-3 nights a week and then play hard cricket at the weekend.

We breed a lot of mentally weak cricketers. This is why Duncan Fletcher picked Geraint Jones over Chris Read despite Read having infinitely more ability. This is why James Foster, the best wicketkeeper in the world, won't play anymore Test Cricket because it is thought he isn't tough enough mentally. This is why Samit Patel won't get himself fit because he's quite happy plodding along in County cricket and excelling there.

The other goog thing about the Grade model is that no matter how old you are you still have a chance of playing at the highest level. In England you have the ridiculous situation where if you haven't got a contract by the age of 21 that's it, you have to resign yourself to a life outside of pro-cricket unless you get lucky. Cricket isn't like football, and a lot of the time you keep getting better and better with age becuse the experience is invaluable.

I was telling our Kiwi pro last year about my experiences and how the system worked and he was gob smacked. He was 25 but was still in the mix for top level cricket back home. Over here, he'd just be playing club cricket if he hadn't already made it.

Absolutely bang on. I have played cricket at league standard for over 20 years now. I have played with and against some top quality pro's and overseas amatuers. The pros are at another level, but when you look at some of the overseas amatuers, they are far better than some of the county players. They are so hungry to win and achieve. They also know how to party but their focus and attitude to training is so different.

Some of our better players will lose a game and then be getting pissed having a laugh 20 minutes later. I know of current second team county players who spend most of the evening getting lashed while on 2nd team duty.

County players earn a decent living and it's easy for them. Put them out in the real world to get a job and fight for a decent cricket wage and we would see how many are still left fighting.

Any way some great points here. the single thing Lancs need to do is improve the standard of cricketer and if there are some potential players get them in the team.

I've played County 2s cricket and I can confirm the lads have a great time!
 

Shands

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Joined
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Messages
2,168
Looking ahead to next season, putting aside the top 4 for a moment, a team from 5 onwards of:

Croft
Proctor
Cross
Smith
Chapple/Hogg
Mahmood
Keedy/Kerrigan

seems fairly promising and competitive enough. I suppose the question Moores will have to ask himself over the summer is can he produce a strong enough top 4 from Horton, Moore, Chilton & Brown. If not does he promote from within (Goodwin, Agathengalou, Clark, Perry) or does he recruit (Van Jaarsveld, Shah, Overseas player). It could be an interesting winter to see which way he goes.
 

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