Local Elections

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by urban genie, 3 May 2018.

  1. inbetween

    inbetween

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    I don't see what that contains beyond flowery suggestions and saying sorry it might hurt a bit. It also says it is costed, I wasn't able to find those costings but yeah... It also has virtually no credibility given much of it has already unravelled and been criticised by economists.

    The majority of people don't deliver parcels or flip burgers not that there is anything wrong with that. The average wage in the country is £26k-£28k or so which is fairly decent if you ask me. You will struggle however to earn that as a burger flipper wherever you go in the world.

    Only 6.7% are classed as employed and on the minimum wage, 1 in 50 are on a zero hours contract and okay a bigger proportion work part time but who knows maybe that is what they want? The vast majority seem to do okay.

    Take a trip to the shopping centre or have a look at the cars on the motorway and it always seems that people aren't doing as bad as you may think. Housing demand for example is unprecedented but they always sell which is odd when everyone has no money.

    You would think on Monday the pubs would be dead and there wouldn't be a car on the road because everyone was so skint... The reality was quite the opposite.
     
  2. The perfect fumble

    The perfect fumble

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    But the facts do not bear any of this up.

    Corbyn, would, in any other country in continental Europe, be considered a mainstream left wing politician, nothing he proposes puts him to the left of Harold Wilson, except nuclear disarmament, which even he admits will never pass, because there's not enough traction in the party or the country, in fact, in all other respects, Corbyn is well to the right of Wilson.

    What you and Damocles are saying is Corbyn is to the left of Blair, which makes him de facto dangerously left.

    As for haemorrhaging traditional Labour voters there is no evidence of that at all. A leader can only work with what he inherits, ask Vince Cable, Labour's fortunes in both membership and at the ballot box have grown under Corbyn, that is an undeniable fact. It is true he did not win in 2017, but no rational person could have expected a Labour victory, given where we were.

    As for purging in a quest for ideological purity, there is no evidence whatsoever for any of that, in either the constituencies or Westminster. And a leader strengthening their position through the democratic mechanisms of their party, as Corbyn is doing, is par for the course, all leaders do this, but it is only considered dangerous and subversive if the left do it.

    As for dark arts in politics, it's only your ignorance and prejudice that blinds you to the antics of the Blairites since Corbyn's election, the mass resignations, the second leadership election, the constant sniping, the media briefings, their party within a party antics. If the left had attempted even a fraction of the shit the Blairites have pulled off these last two years your head would've explode.

    And of course you ignore what Clive Lewis and Jon Cruddas are doing, men who don't live in your alternate universe and are actively trying to heal the rift in the party, a rift which would not exist if the right of the party were in power. The left has, for a very long time, had to suck it up in the name of party unity, in the hope that the right, under what little pressure the left could apply, might just squeeze the odd progressive policy through while the Daily Mail wasn't looking. The left would not jeopardise the Labour party as the right are doing now. It's not the left destroying the Labour party in order to save it, it is the right, they're destroying the party in order to save it for themselves.

    Your hatred of the left blinds you completely, for you everything they do is sinister and underhand, yet they have behaved with impeccable restraint, more than they should in my opinion, considering the outrageous behaviour of the right. But for you the right in the party are the good guys and the left the baddies, so any and all sorts of shit the right pulls off is okay, after all they're defending moderation, your moderation.

    Your kind of moderation sees the market and its unrestrained operation as the highest form of human liberty, any attempt to constrain the market is a constraint on human freedom, so from your perspective a party that attempts to interfere with the market, in any way, is attacking freedom itself.

    I can see why it is you shit your pants at the thought of Corbyn in number 10, but it's your attempt to convince us that the stink is really eau de cologne that's really repellent.
     
    Last edited: 12 May 2018
  3. mcfc1632

    mcfc1632

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    And you thought that it was sensible to respond to a post in which I point out your predilection to ramble as a method of distracting and hiding, by...............?

    Let's keep it simple - this is what you have been pulled up for and from which you are seemingly seeking to distract from by posting all this rambling:

    1. You have posted several times versions of how any traditional or potential Labour supporters that hold what would be considered 'centrist' views are not wanted in the Labour party. You have indicated that such people - especially if they were what you term 'Blairites' should simply 'fuck off'. Now whilst Blair has become such a taint that very many people - including me - would gladly give him a smack - this does not mean that millions that were attracted to a Centre-left party are also tainted.

    That you hold and have stated these views is a simple fact and no amount of distraction and dissembling will be sufficient for you to hide behind. I do not know why you now even do this - surely better to 'man-up' and admit that you hold those not 'far-left enough' in total contempt - not just specific individuals like me.

    2. As myself and several others, have pointed out - if the Labour party does not act to secure the votes of people that are 'not as pure of thinking' as you and others on here but are inclined to vote Labour if the party were to offer a 'genuine' broad-church and not be totally dominated by 'far-left ideology' - then it is not going to be elected to government anytime soon.

    Again, this is a simple fact and no amount of posting ramblings like this post I am replying to can distract from or deny this simple fact.

    What you seem to miss is that Labour already has your vote secure - and that of Len and many others on here - it is not any where near enough to win an electoral majority or lead a coalition.

    In a starkly perverse sense - people like you are not important with regard to the next election - you are already committed. By the same token Chippy is equally unimportant as he is also totally committed. It is the very many people like me, a past Labour voter living outside the metropolitan areas, that have to become comfortable enough to vote Labour again - which will not happen if they consolidate towards the far-left. Whilst that may not sit comfortably with you - it is another simple fact.

    These simple facts are what myself and others have sought to discuss but which you and others jump on to try and close down such considerations. So why don't you just ignore this and all my posts and let others have a discussion - could that work for you?

    It will be the likes of you IMO that will be the cause of another 10-15 years of Tory government without them having to overly shift to the centre ground.
     
    Last edited: 12 May 2018
  4. The perfect fumble

    The perfect fumble

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    Your opinion is worth nothing because it is based on nothing, in fact it is worse than nothing, as it is opinion that flies in the face of facts. You grind out this vacuous nonsense over and over, not because it is evidence based, but because you want it to be so.

    Election 2005, Tony Blair, Labour Leader, 9,552,436 votes, 35.2 %

    Election 2010, Gordon Brown, Labour Leader, 8,609,527 votes, 29%

    Election 2015, Ed Miliband, Labour Leader, 9,347,273 votes, 30.4%

    Election 2017, Jeremy Corbyn, Labour Leader, 12,878,460 votes, 40%

    The Tories are not going to hold an election any time soon because they fear they''ll lose, and their fear is not irrational, their pollsters have told them this. This is the reality of politics right now and why am I certain of these things? Because the evidence all around me points in that direction, not the blindness of the political zealot but cold hard evidence.

    You don't have any facts to back up your half baked nonsense, that is why your posts are nothing more than hyperbole, a broken record endlessly repeating over and over "middle way, middle way, middle way".

    That is why, and you'll enjoy this because I'm repeating it, you are the worst poster in here by a country mile.
     
  5. bluethrunthru

    bluethrunthru

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    well said
     
  6. mcfc1632

    mcfc1632

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    Sooooooo, when I suggested:

    "............what myself and others have sought to discuss but which you and others jump on to try and close down such considerations. So why don't you just ignore this and all my posts and let others have a discussion - could that work for you?"

    That will be a no then............

    Your stats are 'interestingly' selective and would only be impressive to someone that is actually not able to understand the UK electoral system.

    In fact they bear out the accuracy of my comment:

    "In a starkly perverse sense - people like you are not important with regard to the next election - you are already committed. By the same token Chippy is equally unimportant as he is also totally committed. It is the very many people like me, a past Labour voter living outside the metropolitan areas, that have to become comfortable enough to vote Labour again - which will not happen if they consolidate towards the far-left. Whilst that may not sit comfortably with you - it is another simple fact."

    Is that why you did not reflect the 1997 and 2001 results? You are some disingenuous piece of work IMO.

    IMHO - your head is so far up your ideological arse that you are blind to anything that does not fit 'your truth'

    But....

    You cannot just leave others to put their views forward

    That is an increasing trait of the 'far-left' IMO - don't tolerate the views of the less pure to be aired - shout them down!! Drown them out!!!

    Let's see if you can take a small step and not reply to this post

    And as for your comment.........

    "That is why, and you'll enjoy this because I'm repeating it, you are the worst poster in here by a country mile."

    Am I supposed to be offended? Devastated that you think so little of me?

    Is that not just more confirmation of how far your head is up your arse - that you think that your views of someone else should carry any weight - what a laugh. I bet that I am not even the first person that you have given that accolade to.

    Can you not understand that for a number of people on here that accusation - coming from you - would be seen as an accolade?
     
    Last edited: 12 May 2018
  7. Tanzeylee

    Tanzeylee

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    If fascism ever comes to the uk it will be in the name of liberalism
     
  8. The perfect fumble

    The perfect fumble

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    I don't give a monkey's nuts about accolades and I couldn't care less whether you are offended or not.

    I don't care what your politics are, but whatever they are if you want to post with any credibility in here, they have to supported by reasoned argument, and yours are not.

    Your "there is no alternative" is not backed up with anything other than you repeating, over and over, there is no alternative.

    In my post before last I started by stating..."But the facts do not bear any of this up."

    Anyone interested in debate would have countered my argument with facts, evidence, opinion based on something other than "middle way, middle way, middle way", but, as always, that's all we got.

    In my post above I did a compare and contrast of Corbyn's 2017 performance with Blair's in 2005, Browns in 2010 and Miliband's in 2015.

    Those figures alone blew away everything you had previously posted, surely you'd counter those figures with reasoned argument, you couldn't just leave those figures unanswered, what did we get?....
    Physician, heal thyself.
     
    Last edited: 12 May 2018
  9. mcfc1632

    mcfc1632

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    I will read this - probably crap - later, but I bet it demonstrates clearly that you are not able to wind your neck in and allow other people to post to each other.

    You have to try to impose your narrow views .

    I hope mods note that this little exchange started when you simply had to reply to a post between somebody else and I - because you cannot allow others to discuss opinions between themselves
     
  10. The perfect fumble

    The perfect fumble

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    Always the innocent victim, always put upon, always Mr Reasonable, crying to the mods.

    Everyone can see what you're doing here.

    All the points I've made that you've ignored, all the arguments you've chosen to swerve, all the facts I've quoted that go unchallanged, of all of that, can you at least explain why, if there is no alternative, this happened....

    Election 2005, Tony Blair, Labour Leader, 9,552,436 votes, 35.2 %

    Election 2010, Gordon Brown, Labour Leader, 8,609,527 votes, 29%

    Election 2015, Ed Miliband, Labour Leader, 9,347,273 votes, 30.4%

    Election 2017, Jeremy Corbyn, Labour Leader, 12,878,460 votes, 40%

    Otherwise, you are everything you accuse me of being.
     
    Last edited: 12 May 2018

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