Master of One

Damocles

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I've noticed a weird thing about the squad that we have currently.

We don't seem to have many 'jack of all trades' players in it, compared to the rest of the top four. Our squad is entirely composed of players who are brilliant at ONE thing, but their all round game isn't brilliant.

Given has his shot stopping, Bridge/Richards have their wing play, Toure passing out of defence, Lescott in the air. Barry is managing the pace of the game, Ireland is deft touches, De Jong is hard tackling. Tevez is workrate and pressuring defenders, Adebayor is goals.
Outside of them, Petrov is brilliant crossing/shooting, SWP is great at playing a more defensive winger's game, Johnson is tricky, RSC will hold up the play well, Zab will give complete commitment, Kompany will read attackers well and cut out their play, etc.

My point over this, is that if you try and interchange those names, it doesn't work. For example, Toure is good in the air, and Lescott can pass it out of defence? Ireland a hard tackler, De Jong can control a game and Barry gives deft touches? Maybe there's a point with Ade/Tevez.

Everybody seems to be good at one thing, and one thing alone, their basic overall game is quite poor. I think that one of our problems is getting a tactic correct whereby everybody only has one job to do. We have bought players who are extremely talented at the job that they were bought for, but now Mancini has other plans for them, they are struggling. Yes, Hughes was drawing a lot, but the team seemed to have a bit more about it back then. Not organisation, more like that everybody knew who would be doing that one task and that they needn't bother. Under Mancini, players are expected to cover each other's roles much more - look at Ireland for an example. Hughes team was great because it was simple, Mancini's is more complex tactically. Neither one of these approaches is better or worse than the other, just different.
Hughes relied on the players to express themselves as talented individuals and bought with this in mind, i.e. "I need someone who will score goals - Ade is the best at that, I'll buy him", "I need someone who is good in the air at CB - Lescott is the best at that, I'll grab him".
Mancini seems to expect the players to play his game, rather than relying on their particular one talent. He expects them to all be able to pass well, to shoot, to defend, to do their job; it's a bit more of a Total Football approach, and it isn't working. I'm expecting huge scale changes in the summer.

That's the thing, they aren't bad players, they are excellent in their roles; Mancini just expects them to be good all round players and looking through the squad, we don't have many of them. We have players who don't have a basic level of talent in all areas, they are one dimensional.

Viera is actually a good signing, and Gago would have also being brilliant. Even if you forget the age of Viera and the experience, he can win a ball well, he can break down the play, he can boss the midfield, he can pass efficiently, he even has some good vision and can split a defence every now and again. Basically, he can do the job's of Barry, De Jong and Ireland (though worse than all of them, but better all round). Gago can actually play as a defensive hard tackling midfielder in the De Jong role, or can play behind the strikers and create as Ireland did.

I'm not saying that we need a team full of utility players, just that we need players who have a better 'basic' talent than the ones we have, more than players who have one individual brilliance. Perhaps what is actually missing, is just some of these players who can fill in some roles, and then we will be a great team, or maybe we need to rebuild from scratch. I don't know, I'm not a manager and don't know Mancini's mind.

People talk of buying the Villa's of the world, but we will have the same problem again. In my view, we need to start picking up players that aren't the best in the world but are just good at everything. They won't cost £50m because they aren't brilliant at everything, but they are good enough at all to allow other players to be brilliant, if that makes sense.
 
We should be looking at players who could be the next Zidane, the next Tevez, the next Ronaldinho. Not just buying the ones that have made it and already have reputations. Can use that youthful determination and create something special of our own that we can appreciate.
 
Damocles said:
People talk of buying the Villa's of the world, but we will have the same problem again. In my view, we need to start picking up players that aren't the best in the world but are just good at everything. They won't cost £50m because they aren't brilliant at everything, but they are good enough at all to allow other players to be brilliant, if that makes sense.


It pains me to say it, but we want someone like the Fletcher, Lucas even!
 
mancmackem said:
We should be looking at players who could be the next Zidane, the next Tevez, the next Ronaldinho. Not just buying the ones that have made it and already have reputations. Can use that youthful determination and create something special of our own that we can appreciate.

Same problem will come. We need to concentrate on the here and now, and have a squad with depth otherwise their talent will be wasted.

Messi is fantastic, but all of Barcelona's players (apart from maybe Ibra which is why I'm pained to see him linked with us) have a very high standard of their all round game.

To use an oft-quoted expression (that I called bullshit on when the press was trotting it out) we need the cake before the cherry.
 
I think Higuain at Madrid - who I would love us to sign if the rumours are true - falls into this bracket. Not outstandingly fast, good in the air, skillful, spectacular or able to link play, but at least a 7/10 in all areas and it shows in his outstanding goal record. He has seen of Benzema, but you can guarantee they'll sign another pricy striker like Villa in the summer and he could well be up for grabs. Love to see him and Tevez together
 
Damocles said:
mancmackem said:
We should be looking at players who could be the next Zidane, the next Tevez, the next Ronaldinho. Not just buying the ones that have made it and already have reputations. Can use that youthful determination and create something special of our own that we can appreciate.

Same problem will come. We need to concentrate on the here and now, and have a squad with depth otherwise their talent will be wasted.

Messi is fantastic, but all of Barcelona's players (apart from maybe Ibra which is why I'm pained to see him linked with us) have a very high standard of their all round game.

To use an oft-quoted expression (that I called bullshit on when the press was trotting it out) we need the cake before the cherry.

completely agree with this, and the OP!!

nice to see someone talking sence..... ;)
 
quiet_riot said:
Damocles said:
People talk of buying the Villa's of the world, but we will have the same problem again. In my view, we need to start picking up players that aren't the best in the world but are just good at everything. They won't cost £50m because they aren't brilliant at everything, but they are good enough at all to allow other players to be brilliant, if that makes sense.


It pains me to say it, but we want someone like the Fletcher, Lucas even!

or better still Piennar, Modric, Kranjar, Rodwell and/or Arteta
 
In a round about way I agree with that post.

Simply put, Mancini wants players who are technically top class first and foremost, and with that technique comes the ability to do lots of different things.

Rodwell at Everton is a prime example of the type of player developing player who fits that mould. He can pass, tackle, dribble, great technique, and also seems to have a good footballing brain.
 
Damo, I said this ages ago about Hughes buying players that were good at what they did, cos he didn't have the nous for tactics, in reality. He just stuck them in their roles and let them have at it.

Like you say, Mancini DOES want the players to play beyond what they're supposedly good at and so they should. It doesn't have to be 'far from the tree', but as footballers, they should be able to tweak their game to suit a position that's none too far from their 'specialist' play.

Not to be able to do so is criminal, in my book.
 
Despite all the money that we've spent, ask yourselves the question how many of the current squad would you be DESPERATE for us not to sell. In my opinion Tevez and Robinho are top quality. Who else falls into that bracket? Not many.
 
The thing is, I wouldn't want to sell most of our players. They are all talented and good players.

We have built our house using the finest bricks available, but without the cement between them. Fletcher was a good shout by someone, as was Lucas and I'll add Palacios from Spurs to that list. Richards is actually the type of players that I'm talking about. He isn't the best in the world at anything, but he is good in the air (not as good as Lescott), can carry the ball out of defence (though not as good as Toure), and can get up the wings and cross (though not as good as Bridge). If his attitude was a little different, and I've heard that it recently has been, then his effort would make up the rest of the talent.

I never thought I'd say this with City, but we need to buy more average players. Players who don't stand out as special, but do their job well and efficiently.
 
Gerrard- a much more complete player than anything we have outside of Carlitos, and Adebayor when he can be arsed mucking in ie 1 game in 10.

Agree with Damocles here tbh. If it's not too fine a distinction, I'd go further and say that you can see, in each player, one attribute which lets them down and stops them from being genuinely outstanding- or even throroughly world class- players.

Wriiting Gaz Baz off as a defensive player is incorrect imo, he's significantly more of a box to box player, but to be truely outstanding he'd need to be faster around the pitch.
Stevie is great going forward, and a hard tackler, his defensive positioning sense and decision making is woeful though.
Adebayor, as alluded to above, is frequently half arsed
Bellers doesnt know where to draw the line with his mouth sometimes
SWP is hard as nails but so easy to knock off the ball, fairly
Mica, could be one of the best CBs in the world if only he'd work out his positioning- possibly an underlying attitude issue when you watch him trot, rather than sprint, back into position
Lescott, could be quicker
Nige, would be more consitently useful to us if he was 3" taller

On the other hand, I point to Little Vinny and Bridgey (and Tevez obviously) as class examples of good all round games. More like these, please, boss.
 
Damocles said:
I've noticed a weird thing about the squad that we have currently.

We don't seem to have many 'jack of all trades' players in it, compared to the rest of the top four. Our squad is entirely composed of players who are brilliant at ONE thing, but their all round game isn't brilliant.

Given has his shot stopping, Bridge/Richards have their wing play, Toure passing out of defence, Lescott in the air. Barry is managing the pace of the game, Ireland is deft touches, De Jong is hard tackling. Tevez is workrate and pressuring defenders, Adebayor is goals.
Outside of them, Petrov is brilliant crossing/shooting, SWP is great at playing a more defensive winger's game, Johnson is tricky, RSC will hold up the play well, Zab will give complete commitment, Kompany will read attackers well and cut out their play, etc.

My point over this, is that if you try and interchange those names, it doesn't work. For example, Toure is good in the air, and Lescott can pass it out of defence? Ireland a hard tackler, De Jong can control a game and Barry gives deft touches? Maybe there's a point with Ade/Tevez.

Everybody seems to be good at one thing, and one thing alone, their basic overall game is quite poor. I think that one of our problems is getting a tactic correct whereby everybody only has one job to do. We have bought players who are extremely talented at the job that they were bought for, but now Mancini has other plans for them, they are struggling. Yes, Hughes was drawing a lot, but the team seemed to have a bit more about it back then. Not organisation, more like that everybody knew who would be doing that one task and that they needn't bother. Under Mancini, players are expected to cover each other's roles much more - look at Ireland for an example. Hughes team was great because it was simple, Mancini's is more complex tactically. Neither one of these approaches is better or worse than the other, just different.
Hughes relied on the players to express themselves as talented individuals and bought with this in mind, i.e. "I need someone who will score goals - Ade is the best at that, I'll buy him", "I need someone who is good in the air at CB - Lescott is the best at that, I'll grab him".
Mancini seems to expect the players to play his game, rather than relying on their particular one talent. He expects them to all be able to pass well, to shoot, to defend, to do their job; it's a bit more of a Total Football approach, and it isn't working. I'm expecting huge scale changes in the summer.

That's the thing, they aren't bad players, they are excellent in their roles; Mancini just expects them to be good all round players and looking through the squad, we don't have many of them. We have players who don't have a basic level of talent in all areas, they are one dimensional.

Viera is actually a good signing, and Gago would have also being brilliant. Even if you forget the age of Viera and the experience, he can win a ball well, he can break down the play, he can boss the midfield, he can pass efficiently, he even has some good vision and can split a defence every now and again. Basically, he can do the job's of Barry, De Jong and Ireland (though worse than all of them, but better all round). Gago can actually play as a defensive hard tackling midfielder in the De Jong role, or can play behind the strikers and create as Ireland did.

I'm not saying that we need a team full of utility players, just that we need players who have a better 'basic' talent than the ones we have, more than players who have one individual brilliance. Perhaps what is actually missing, is just some of these players who can fill in some roles, and then we will be a great team, or maybe we need to rebuild from scratch. I don't know, I'm not a manager and don't know Mancini's mind.

People talk of buying the Villa's of the world, but we will have the same problem again. In my view, we need to start picking up players that aren't the best in the world but are just good at everything. They won't cost £50m because they aren't brilliant at everything, but they are good enough at all to allow other players to be brilliant, if that makes sense.
I've thought about this before, and in fact i mentioned it in the De Jong thread. As an out and out anchorman he is very good, however there are plenty of other players who can sit in his position, be just as effective defensively whilst having the necessary ability to able to contribute to the attacking side of thing.

I came to the conlusion that we have too many players who aren't comfortable on the ball. They're all technically decent players but not really good enough for that next level. Barry, De Jong, Zaba, Richards, SWP, Bellamy etc...all have their qualities and interestingly enough, would all get gametime for most teams throughout Europe. The players we have don't really compliment eachother. You can have the workers,the spoilers and the versatile players but you need to balance it out with a little bit of flair and technical ability.

In the summer, i don't even think we need to go out breaking the bank. A player like Hleb and a powerful, but technically sound midfielder like Yaya Toure would be perfect for us.
 
ono said:
Damocles said:
I've noticed a weird thing about the squad that we have currently.

We don't seem to have many 'jack of all trades' players in it, compared to the rest of the top four. Our squad is entirely composed of players who are brilliant at ONE thing, but their all round game isn't brilliant.

Given has his shot stopping, Bridge/Richards have their wing play, Toure passing out of defence, Lescott in the air. Barry is managing the pace of the game, Ireland is deft touches, De Jong is hard tackling. Tevez is workrate and pressuring defenders, Adebayor is goals.
Outside of them, Petrov is brilliant crossing/shooting, SWP is great at playing a more defensive winger's game, Johnson is tricky, RSC will hold up the play well, Zab will give complete commitment, Kompany will read attackers well and cut out their play, etc.

My point over this, is that if you try and interchange those names, it doesn't work. For example, Toure is good in the air, and Lescott can pass it out of defence? Ireland a hard tackler, De Jong can control a game and Barry gives deft touches? Maybe there's a point with Ade/Tevez.

Everybody seems to be good at one thing, and one thing alone, their basic overall game is quite poor. I think that one of our problems is getting a tactic correct whereby everybody only has one job to do. We have bought players who are extremely talented at the job that they were bought for, but now Mancini has other plans for them, they are struggling. Yes, Hughes was drawing a lot, but the team seemed to have a bit more about it back then. Not organisation, more like that everybody knew who would be doing that one task and that they needn't bother. Under Mancini, players are expected to cover each other's roles much more - look at Ireland for an example. Hughes team was great because it was simple, Mancini's is more complex tactically. Neither one of these approaches is better or worse than the other, just different.
Hughes relied on the players to express themselves as talented individuals and bought with this in mind, i.e. "I need someone who will score goals - Ade is the best at that, I'll buy him", "I need someone who is good in the air at CB - Lescott is the best at that, I'll grab him".
Mancini seems to expect the players to play his game, rather than relying on their particular one talent. He expects them to all be able to pass well, to shoot, to defend, to do their job; it's a bit more of a Total Football approach, and it isn't working. I'm expecting huge scale changes in the summer.

That's the thing, they aren't bad players, they are excellent in their roles; Mancini just expects them to be good all round players and looking through the squad, we don't have many of them. We have players who don't have a basic level of talent in all areas, they are one dimensional.

Viera is actually a good signing, and Gago would have also being brilliant. Even if you forget the age of Viera and the experience, he can win a ball well, he can break down the play, he can boss the midfield, he can pass efficiently, he even has some good vision and can split a defence every now and again. Basically, he can do the job's of Barry, De Jong and Ireland (though worse than all of them, but better all round). Gago can actually play as a defensive hard tackling midfielder in the De Jong role, or can play behind the strikers and create as Ireland did.

I'm not saying that we need a team full of utility players, just that we need players who have a better 'basic' talent than the ones we have, more than players who have one individual brilliance. Perhaps what is actually missing, is just some of these players who can fill in some roles, and then we will be a great team, or maybe we need to rebuild from scratch. I don't know, I'm not a manager and don't know Mancini's mind.

People talk of buying the Villa's of the world, but we will have the same problem again. In my view, we need to start picking up players that aren't the best in the world but are just good at everything. They won't cost £50m because they aren't brilliant at everything, but they are good enough at all to allow other players to be brilliant, if that makes sense.
I've thought about this before, and in fact i mentioned it in the De Jong thread. As an out and out anchorman he is very good, however there are plenty of other players who can sit in his position, be just as effective defensively whilst having the necessary ability to able to contribute to the attacking side of thing.

I came to the conlusion that we have too many players who aren't comfortable on the ball. They're all technically decent players but not really good enough for that next level. Barry, De Jong, Zaba, Richards, SWP, Bellamy etc...all have their qualities and interestingly enough, would all get gametime for most teams throughout Europe. The players we have don't really compliment eachother. You can have the workers,the spoilers and the versatile players but you need to balance it out with a little bit of flair and technical ability.

In the summer, i don't even think we need to go out breaking the bank. A player like Hleb and a powerful, but technically sound midfielder like Yaya Toure would be perfect for us.

I'll throw the name Wesley Sneijder in to the hat.
 
Damocles said:
I've noticed a weird thing about the squad that we have currently.

We don't seem to have many 'jack of all trades' players in it, compared to the rest of the top four.

I know what you're getting at......we need Sun Ji Hi back
 
Damocles said:
I've noticed a weird thing about the squad that we have currently.

We don't seem to have many 'jack of all trades' players in it, compared to the rest of the top four. Our squad is entirely composed of players who are brilliant at ONE thing, but their all round game isn't brilliant.

Given has his shot stopping, Bridge/Richards have their wing play, Toure passing out of defence, Lescott in the air. Barry is managing the pace of the game, Ireland is deft touches, De Jong is hard tackling. Tevez is workrate and pressuring defenders, Adebayor is goals.
Outside of them, Petrov is brilliant crossing/shooting, SWP is great at playing a more defensive winger's game, Johnson is tricky, RSC will hold up the play well, Zab will give complete commitment, Kompany will read attackers well and cut out their play, etc.

My point over this, is that if you try and interchange those names, it doesn't work. For example, Toure is good in the air, and Lescott can pass it out of defence? Ireland a hard tackler, De Jong can control a game and Barry gives deft touches? Maybe there's a point with Ade/Tevez.

Everybody seems to be good at one thing, and one thing alone, their basic overall game is quite poor. I think that one of our problems is getting a tactic correct whereby everybody only has one job to do. We have bought players who are extremely talented at the job that they were bought for, but now Mancini has other plans for them, they are struggling. Yes, Hughes was drawing a lot, but the team seemed to have a bit more about it back then. Not organisation, more like that everybody knew who would be doing that one task and that they needn't bother. Under Mancini, players are expected to cover each other's roles much more - look at Ireland for an example. Hughes team was great because it was simple, Mancini's is more complex tactically. Neither one of these approaches is better or worse than the other, just different.
Hughes relied on the players to express themselves as talented individuals and bought with this in mind, i.e. "I need someone who will score goals - Ade is the best at that, I'll buy him", "I need someone who is good in the air at CB - Lescott is the best at that, I'll grab him".
Mancini seems to expect the players to play his game, rather than relying on their particular one talent. He expects them to all be able to pass well, to shoot, to defend, to do their job; it's a bit more of a Total Football approach, and it isn't working. I'm expecting huge scale changes in the summer.

That's the thing, they aren't bad players, they are excellent in their roles; Mancini just expects them to be good all round players and looking through the squad, we don't have many of them. We have players who don't have a basic level of talent in all areas, they are one dimensional.

Viera is actually a good signing, and Gago would have also being brilliant. Even if you forget the age of Viera and the experience, he can win a ball well, he can break down the play, he can boss the midfield, he can pass efficiently, he even has some good vision and can split a defence every now and again. Basically, he can do the job's of Barry, De Jong and Ireland (though worse than all of them, but better all round). Gago can actually play as a defensive hard tackling midfielder in the De Jong role, or can play behind the strikers and create as Ireland did.

I'm not saying that we need a team full of utility players, just that we need players who have a better 'basic' talent than the ones we have, more than players who have one individual brilliance. Perhaps what is actually missing, is just some of these players who can fill in some roles, and then we will be a great team, or maybe we need to rebuild from scratch. I don't know, I'm not a manager and don't know Mancini's mind.

People talk of buying the Villa's of the world, but we will have the same problem again. In my view, we need to start picking up players that aren't the best in the world but are just good at everything. They won't cost £50m because they aren't brilliant at everything, but they are good enough at all to allow other players to be brilliant, if that makes sense.

Do you mean players who can play in different positions?

If so then the following players can play in different positions:

Richards RB/CH
Onuha RB/CH
Zabaleta RB/CH/LB/MID
Kompany CB/MID
Toure CB/RB
Lescott LB/CH
Barry MID/LB
Bellamy LM/RM/CF
A. Johnson LM/RM
Tevez All over the park!!

If you mean someone who is top class at several different positions, then you won't find many like that!!
 
quiet_riot said:
Damocles said:
People talk of buying the Villa's of the world, but we will have the same problem again. In my view, we need to start picking up players that aren't the best in the world but are just good at everything. They won't cost £50m because they aren't brilliant at everything, but they are good enough at all to allow other players to be brilliant, if that makes sense.


It pains me to say it, but we want someone like the Fletcher, Lucas even!

Someone LIKE Fletcher, just like him, nothing else! Keep the bugger at the swamp.
 
The Fixer said:
Gonzalo Higuain Marek Hamsik Neven Subotic All 3 are under 22 playing at a very good level, would improve our squad no end.
Great shout Fixer. Three young, hungry future superstars. If we bought nobody else in the summer I'd be well happy with them. Would improve us no end. Lets make our own legends rather than paying over the odds for someone else's like Torres and Gerrard
 

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