Middle East Conflict

bluethrunthru said:
same here - I get the anger but can't see how you can justify going on the offensive as a defensive act - thats the language of Putin in Ukraine
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This is part of the never ending cycle.

Palestinians attack Israel, as retribution then Israel goes in ten times harder and takes land for itself, then as retribution Palestinians attack again, then Israel goes in ten times harder and takes land, then… every step along the way edging more people towards ultra-Nationalism or Jihad as all the retribution creates is resentment due to deaths.
 
meltonblue said:
I didn’t see much on here about it but the challenge I saw around it elsewhere was more how that got reported on quickly and widely before being verified.
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My point is, its pretty obvious now what took place. The actual manner in which the massacre of innocents happened is pretty irrelevant. So to use that as an excuse for it to be "unverified" is scandalous.
 
Ohrodneyrodney said:
Oh it really has, many times, on here and elsewhere.
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I honestly haven’t seen anyone on here being as dismissive of infant’s deaths as you suggest, but please do report any such posts for us to review. I don’t think questioning the validity of the story is the same thing though.
 
Ric said:
I honestly haven’t seen anyone on here being as dismissive of infant’s deaths as you suggest, but please do report any such posts for us to review. I don’t think questioning the validity of the story is the same thing though.
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Ric I'll check my posts but I dont think I said or suggested posters were dismissive of infants deaths, I thought I said they questioned whether or not they had happened, or the method involved. If I have done, I will delete the posts because that's not what I meant.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
No, I get all of what you are saying and as I’ve said, my post is as much about me trying to get my head around the similarities. But I can see the dissimilarities too.

I said in a previous post that I find myself biting my tongue about some of the opinions posted, not so much because I disagree with the substantive points being made but the analysis or rationale being offered to what is an acceptable retaliatory response just doesn’t seem in keeping with comparative atrocities through our own domestic histories.

I’m conscious not to bring this back to Irish history continually. It is after all a thread about Israel/Palestine and deserves the respect not to be side tracked.

But I think we ignore lessons learned from the past at our peril.

Just a small example from your response to me regarding no similar numbers of casualties in any one terrorist action in Irish/British history that would have prompted a response similar to the Israeli response now.

I fully accept your point.
But with a population of over 2 million in Gaza who are basically going to be cut off from power and clean water and will be put at risk of starvation, due to what could be considered wilful inaction by Israel and the wider world if we stand by and let it happen.
Could you not draw a comparison to what the British government wilfully allowed happen in Ireland in the 1840s. From a population of roughly 9 million, after the famine the population was reduced by approximately 2 million through starvation and emigration. This was allowed happen through policy and let’s not forget these were British subjects at the time. Grain farmers were exporting grain out of the country to England.
Ulster and Leinster where most British support lay were least affected.

Listen it’s history and I’m not raking this up for any other reason other than to show the lessons from past such actions or inactions.

The resentment of Britain from allowing people starve lasted at least a century and a half and you could argue that some quarters still haven’t let it go.

How can anyone think it is a good idea to let innocent people starve in Gaza.
I don’t see that as punishing Hamas.
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Hamas will have access to food and water, long after the general population goes without. Israel are more interested in pleasing a domestic audience shocked by the weekend’s atrocities. Gaza seems to be an intelligence black hole for the IDF so that’s also dictating their current "arms length" tactics.
 
Ric said:
Well said. I think the majority of posters just want to be able to discuss what is clearly a seismic global story free from this sort of stuff.

To their credit, many with close emotional ties to either side of the debate have been able to do so. Any right-minded person will be appalled by the deaths of innocent civilians on both sides.

Does feel like a small minority are intent on stoking the fires of hatred though, using inflammatory language or allegations to goad others. If that’s your intention then please stay away from the thread, or face a thread ban.
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It’s always an emotive subject to discuss, but there have been some excellent and interesting posts from all different perspectives I think most people like myself sit in the middle, we can see both sides but a small minority are so wedded to where they have planted their flag it becomes impossible to talk or debate

I hope people do spare a thought for all the innocent people who are suffering on both sides, my one hope is after this horrible tragedy that the minds of the world leaders will finally say enough is enough a peaceful and equitable solution must be found we can’t carry on like this
 
Tim of the Oak said:
Hamas will have access to food and water, long after the general population goes without. Israel are more interested in pleasing a domestic audience shocked by the weekend’s atrocities. Gaza seems to be an intelligence black hole for the IDF so that’s also dictating their current "arms length" tactics.
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If the worst is allowed to happen wilfully, in Gaza, my point is that all it will do is kill millions of innocent people and recruit millions to the likes of Hamas.

Worse will come.
 
Surely it’s against the Geneva convention/ human rights act etc to cut people’s power and water not everyone are terrorists there are young old disabled suffering this is appalling they can get away with this
 
Winchester said:
Dear God

What is happening????
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A globally proscribed terrorist organisation has launched an attack on Israel no doubt with the backing of other radical states backed by larger and more sinister geo politically aware forces at a time of vulnerability for the west due to Putin and a war in Ukraine.
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
Palestinians attack Israel, as retribution then Israel goes in ten times harder and takes land for itself, then as retribution Palestinians attack again, then Israel goes in ten times harder and takes land, then… every step along the way edging more people towards ultra-Nationalism or Jihad as all the retribution creates is resentment due to deaths.
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Their army don't "take land" though, they go into it, achieve their objective, and return to the previous positions. They've done that many times.

Many on this thread don't understand hamas, they are within the general population (many probably related to ordinary Gazans), so "wiping them off the face of the earth" is a very difficult objective.

They are also in underground bunkers, I assume the IDF know where these are, and are going after them, sadly civilians are on the ground above those bunkers. Israel has warned about the areas at risk, but there is pretty much nowhere for the civilians to go to get away from them, other than schools and hospitals, and I'm sure hamas use those for protection.

However you look at it, it's a horrible shitshow, that hamas wanted.
 
The Stockport Iniesta said:
Nobody seems to be talking about the hostages that Hamas has taken. Fuck knows what they are being put through at this time. No way will Israel back off while Hamas hold all those hostages.
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Hamas took those hostages to use as a swap. The more Israel attacks, the less likelihood there is of that taking place and the hostages being recovered as they’ve already said no negotiations until the attacks stop, which clearly isn’t going to be soon.

It’s horrendous but I’m not sure there’s a route right now for Israel to recover those hostages. Well, not one they’d be willing to take.
 
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