Middle East Conflict

[bluethrunthru]

can anybody explain how destroying occupied tower blocks of flats occupied b families secures the release of hostages held by people the tower blocks occupants have no control over?

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

It's an example but not a good one.
I highly doubt there would have been be any chance of reconciliation in NI if mass murders occured as regularly happen in the middle east.

Ok I see what you are responding to, but the fact of the matter is if you read back through my contribution on this subject I wasn't merely talking about Irish terrorist actions, but also British government total involvement, action and inaction in equal measurement.

I’m not sure what example in particular you think is not a good one, but I do get that there is no one atrocity that you can compare with what has happened here.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

So you've got to abide by the Geneva convention/human rights when your enemy couldn't give a crap about them?

Pretty much so, if you want to maintain the moral high ground.

 

[meltonblue]

We were blockading Germany, destroying warehouses, power stations, water supplies and transport links etc so the effect is the same.
No point in arguing this one I guess we won't change each other's minds

It was nowhere near the same. We didn’t have direct control over any of them at the time and to reiterate we had no obligation towards the citizens population so both the effect and the rule of law is different now too.

Either way though, it’s comparing two different worlds anyway. What you’re saying is again an argument that’s basically saying the Geneva Convention shouldn’t exist or at at the least justifying being able to ignore it in certain circumstances. I don’t want to condone that as that’s exactly the defence people argue against when others make it too.

 

[trueblue1972]

Pretty much so, if you want to maintain the moral high ground.

When you've just been attacked by what is the equivalent to 10 times 911 losses ( % per capita) moral highground is probably the last thing in your mind

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

When you've just been attacked by what is the equivalent to 10 times 911 losses ( % per capita) moral highground is probably the last thing in your mind

I accept that and I would be of similar mind, but it advances nothing.

 

[trueblue1972]

I accept that and I would be of similar mind, but it advances nothing.

I appreciate that, mate, and I wish there could be a more human way of doing it for sure . Tomorrow, hammas have announced international Jihad day , im not sure that will come to anything but people opinions may change if a similar thing happens in Manchester ( it won't)

 

[dublinblue12]

The whole shit show needs to stop NOW.

This seems to have been confirmed by a couple of reliable sources unfortunately . It's use in civilian areas is deemed a war crime.

 

[Vic]

It had been the Ottoman Empire’s land for four hundred years, until their defeat in the Great War.

In four thousand years of history it was only ever Palestine (yet not an official state) under British rule for 28 years, before Israel was created. Jews had continuously lived in the region under Ottoman rule as well as Palestinians, and despite a large diaspora across Europe and North Africa Jews have lived in the Levant continuously for thousands of years themselves.

The Ottomans treated Arabs worse than they did Jews, despite them following the same religion as the Arabs and a religion founded by Arabs, the Ottomans subjected Arabs to four centuries of oppression. Palestinians never had established settlements within the region under Ottoman rule and had no legal status as citizens; whereas Jews did across the Ottoman Empire, and especially did in what is now Israel.

There was no official state of ‘Palestine’ ever in the history of the region before 1988.

Here’s what this region has been throughout recorded history:

View attachment 95756

At barely any point in the region’s history has that area been a land of Arabians.

Forgive me if I missed the point, but that misses off the Roman Empire's Arabian provinces, and their province of Syria Palestine (essentially what had been Judea until the Jewish Bar Kokhba revolt). It's pointless trying to tie ancient occupation of land to modern ideas of an "official state", but the region's been known as Palestine for the best part of two millennia (and the origin of the name goes back a lot further than that). I think the first recorded Christian reference is to "The Martyrs of Palestine" in the 3rd century. Of course it's been a "land of Arabians" if Arabs lived there - including under an Islamic empire (caliphate).

 

[Vic]

Hamas will have access to food and water, long after the general population goes without. Israel are more interested in pleasing a domestic audience shocked by the weekend’s atrocities. Gaza seems to be an intelligence black hole for the IDF so that’s also dictating their current "arms length" tactics.

The Israelis seem to be claiming that targets are intelligence-led (or was that just someone on Bluemoon...) but that's presumably the same intelligence sources that didn't know about what Hamas was planning,

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Well said. I think the majority of posters just want to be able to discuss what is clearly a seismic global story free from this sort of stuff.

To their credit, many with close emotional ties to either side of the debate have been able to do so. Any right-minded person will be appalled by the deaths of innocent civilians on both sides.

Does feel like a small minority are intent on stoking the fires of hatred though, using inflammatory language or allegations to goad others. If that’s your intention then please stay away from the thread, or face a thread ban.

I really think this discussion has gone well.
Personally I’m learning as much as I want to preach ( wrong expression I know)
I think most people are shocked and working their own feelings out under very difficult circumstances or times.

 

[Bluemoon_420]

 

[Shirley]

Perhaps this should be in the media discussion thread as imo there is a big difference in the reporting on this conflict between Sky and CNN.

Understandable I suppose.

 

[TinFoilHat]

Perhaps this should be in the media discussion thread as imo there is a big difference in the reporting on this conflict between Sky and CNN.

Understandable I suppose.

 

[Bluemoon_420]

Perhaps this should be in the media discussion thread as imo there is a big difference in the reporting on this conflict between Sky and CNN.

Understandable I suppose.

 

[KS55]

That the problem when shithouses don’t put a uniform on unfortunately.

Words fail me.
World class gaslighting.
Sorry Doctor, we know you were badly needed but the terrorists that you have nothing to do with don’t wear uniforms and that forced us to cut off the water and electricity supply to your hospital, bomb your house, bulldoze your area, and shoot you dead.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Words fail me.
World class gaslighting. Be ashamed.

I’m not completely sure, I think he’s referring to Netanyahu, and if so he’s completely got a point.

For some, it‘s easy ordering the death of others from the comfort of your chateau.

 

[KS55]

It makes you wonder whether there is any point at which the west tries to rein in Israel as a term for any support. From what I can gather they have the ok from Biden to smash up who they want. Seem to be immune to condemnation. Hate all killing but find Bidens goody and baddy stuff rather ridiculous. Nothing against Jewish people in general have played in teams with hilarious ones and lovely family people but not keen on the killing stuff. As I've got older and found any good health is a bonus to enjoy I just find it tragic the number of young lives being lost around the place needlessly.

Tbf the US Secretary of State has warned Israel that indiscriminate killing is beyond the pale. It will, however, be glossed over.

 

[KS55]

I’m not completely sure, I think he’s referring to Netanyahu, and if so he’s completely got a point.

For some, it‘s easy ordering the death of others from the comfort of your chateau.

I have since amended my post (q v.) to make it clearer what I meant. If Israel calls itself the only democracy in the middle east (a very dubious claim) it should adhere to democratic standards. Blowing up whole buildings, for example, because one tenant out of several hundred residents was a terrorist is collective punishment and a war crime. The idea that it is just bad luck for the innocent bystanders, if that is what the poster had in mind, is just wrong.
tbf, the meaning of the post I referred to was not completely clear.

 

[Crouchinho]

1.1m people told to move from the North. I wonder if their land will be given back after its bombed to bits.