Middle East Conflict

Ducado said:
If the US gets involved all bets are off, they can’t defeat Hezbollah from the air, boots on the ground?

They will be hoping that the threat is enough, it’s not in their strategic interests to get involved, the history of US involvement in the Middle East is patchy at best

A lot of things have been said in anger over the last week or so
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The US won’t put troops on the ground properly, they might do it like Syria. Drones, airstrikes, a thousand or so special forces.

Hezbollah are a completely different kettle of fish to Hamas though. Hamas are your stereotypical terrorists, Ak47s, 1990s Toyota pick up trucks and some very basic rockets.

Hezbollah have modern anti tank weapons we’ve seen in Ukraine, they have tanks, APCs, artillery - even proper high altitude long range UAV drones analogous to predators (but presumably not as good).
 
domalino said:
The US won’t put troops on the ground properly, they might do it like Syria. Drones, airstrikes, a thousand or so special forces.

Hezbollah are a completely different kettle of fish to Hamas though. Hamas are your stereotypical terrorists, Ak47s, 1990s Toyota pick up trucks and some very basic rockets.

Hezbollah have modern anti tank weapons we’ve seen in Ukraine, they have tanks, APCs, artillery - even proper high altitude long range UAV drones analogous to predators (but presumably not as good).
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The current arsenal of Hezbollah - Iranian proxies in Lebanon, according to the Israeli research center Alma.

[emoji3502]145,000 minutes for mortars.
[emoji3502]65,000 missiles with a range of less than 200 km.
[emoji3502]5,000 missiles with a range of more than 200 km.
[emoji3502]2,000 different UAVs
[emoji3502]hundreds of units of mini-submarines, air defense systems, anti-ship missiles, etc.
 
The blue phantom said:
How kind of them

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What’s this for?

As horrific as last weeks attack was, I don’t think I’ve seen any reason Israel would need humanitarian aid? It’s a wealthy country with advanced medical services, disaster relief etc. I haven’t heard about any disruption to say to day services etc.

I’d sort of get it if to was so they could also donate to the displaced Palestinians who live in a third world country and have no power, short on food etc. but its like someone giving us humanitarian aid after 7/7. Maybe that happened I don’t remember.

Anyway it’s the US so it’s probably a political angle.
 
Vic said:
That's actually quite a theme in the Torah, and the prophets. Wandering in the desert for 40 years, and the Babylonian Exile were because of not trusting or of disobeying G-d. Presumably the Diaspora was God's will too (the argument that Judaism doesn't need a land was common enough) * but I'd not heard the modern application to the Holocaust. Why it would lead to support for Palestinians is worth asking.

* It's part of the wide definition of antisemitism (the IHRA "examples") to say it's antisemitic to question the loyalty of Jews to the country they live in. "Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations."

The problematic "example" at the moment would be "Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel" when collective punishment of Palestinians for the actions of Hamas seems OK.
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First I don't hold the current young generation of Palestinians responsible, it is dire and we somehow need to get out of this vicious cycle.

However I would strongly dispute your analogy here around collective responsibility.

British Jews do not have a right to vote in the Israeli elections (in general of course) and therefore cannot be held to account for the current government or previous governments. Fine, in general most will take a side but that's very different from being accountable. It is clear that a significant number of people do take the view that Jews are collectively responsible. Whilst I applaud the generally peaceful protests in cities in the UK today, sadly I feel pro Israel demonstrations would be met with aggression, we are seeing a sharp rise in anti semitism which is unjustified, much of which stems from outright anti semitism or this view of collective responsibility of a religion.

Palestinians in Gaza have democratically voted in a Hamas government. Now you can turn around and say that they had no choice, it was under duress but that itself can be disputed. Arguments of Hamas the terrorists being such a small insignificant minority cannot be given if the same arguments of duress are used for nearly 2 million people. Equally when opinion polls are taken in Gaza where over 50% of people are generally positive towards Hamas then these arguments we see start to become weaker when we are talking about duress in a democratic election.

Even if you accept that it was duress, which I personally don't, it has only been 1 or 2 generations ago where they could have done something about it but they didn't, they, the arab states around and others, let it get out of control. It was only 2 or 3 generations ago that the same families of Palestinians rejected a two state solution with the option of Jerusalem being an international city, as did the Arab countries around it.

If you don't deal with extremism in your ranks early on, or you accept the serious negatives for some positives, when it gets out of control, then you have to share some of that accountability for the generations to come.

That does not mean innocents deserve to die, certainly not, but in terms of collective responsibility of a religion, I disagree with the point and analogy.
 
trueblue1972 said:
The current arsenal of Hezbollah - Iranian proxies in Lebanon, according to the Israeli research center Alma.

[emoji3502]145,000 minutes for mortars.
[emoji3502]65,000 missiles with a range of less than 200 km.
[emoji3502]5,000 missiles with a range of more than 200 km.
[emoji3502]2,000 different UAVs
[emoji3502]hundreds of units of mini-submarines, air defense systems, anti-ship missiles, etc.
Click to expand...

Yeah these guys are a completely different league to Hamas.
 
Vic said:
* It's part of the wide definition of antisemitism (the IHRA "examples") to say it's antisemitic to question the loyalty of Jews to the country they live in. "Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
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FWIW This is not specific to Jews either, it was racist as fuck when Norman Tebbit came up with the cricket test to try and show British-Indians and British-West Indians were not loyal to Great Britain and therefore not to be trusted.

It’s always annoyed me specifically in this country because of how many different people have invaded or settled or fled to these islands over the centuries. And yet some people always want to draw an arbitrary line at Jews in the 1930s or Windrush in the 50’s or Kenyans in the 60s or Poles in the 00s based on the political divisions they trying to target.
 
bluemoon1981 said:
Palestinians in Gaza have democratically voted in a Hamas government.
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This is not true.

They did elect Hamas in 2006 for a 4 year term. Since 2010 Hamas has been in power undemocratically.

Democracy isn’t a one time thing. Julius Caesar was democratically elected dictator for 6 months. As soon as he made himself dictator perpetuo he was no longer a democratically elected leader.
 
domalino said:
This is not true.

They did elect Hamas in 2006 for a 4 year term. Since 2010 Hamas has been in power undemocratically.

Democracy isn’t a one time thing. Julius Caesar was democratically elected dictator for 6 months. As soon as he made himself dictator perpetuo he was no longer a democratically elected leader.
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Hamas' ideology has not changed and the same ideology has broken down prosperity multiple times in that area. They were voted in originally despite this ideology and if you take that risk of putting such people in charge, especially when you see what has happened in the past in your own area with the same people, you have to accept some responsibility. Again, not saying that anyone deserves to die, but I am saying that it is not right to compare collective responsibility of Jews as a religion with respect to Israel and Gazans with Hamas, it really is not apples to apples.
 
bluemoon1981 said:
Hamas' ideology has not changed and the same ideology has broken down prosperity multiple times in that area. They were voted in originally despite this ideology and if you take that risk of putting such people in charge, especially when you see what has happened in the past in your own area with the same people, you have to accept some responsibility. Again, not saying that anyone deserves to die, but I am saying that it is not right to compare collective responsibility of Jews as a religion with respect to Israel and Gazans with Hamas, it really is not apples to apples.
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I don’t care for the comparison either, but that doesn’t change the fact you’re pretending Hamas are democratic representatives of Palestinians and they haven’t been for nearly 15 years.
 
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