Middle East Conflict

There’s been at least 4 posts that have clearly called for wiping out all of Gaza including children. I would’ve preferred the posts remained to show these cunts for what they are personally.

The posts have subsequently removed. There really are some sick knuckle dragging cunts on here and the real world.

I'm alright with them being removed because they're either attention seeking or distrubed and either way we don't need to be discussing them. Though I do accept you shouldn't bury your head in the sand that such views exist (on either side of the debate).
 
The creation of the State of Israel was always going to be problematic. Essentially a huge number of people, culturally western, landed in a middle eastern country.
It certainly has seemed that the only way to guarantee its existance is for there to be sporadic violence on both sides that has upheld the status quo.
The idea that there would be long term peace without a viable Palestinian state on its border's is idiotic. And both Israeli governments, Hamas and various other actors seem keen for this not to happen.
I sort of knew the history, but when you see it as starkly as this in maps,you do wonder what thinking ever made them think it would work.

That said I remember at the time of Clinton they seemed to be very close to a negotiated settlement with Arafat,until U.S and Israeli elections derailed it and it never got restarted.Maybe one day that agreement they were working on thencan be the basis of new negotiations.
 
Is the below from the BBC another reason for the Israeli evacuation calls from the north of the Gaza strip, so in what is already one of the most densely populated places on the planet, even more land can be taken from the Palestinians?:


Cabinet minister Gideon Sa’ar has appeared on Israeli TV. He said Hamas must be destroyed so it could never threaten Israel again, adding this would serve as a lesson to the region.

He also said that Gaza must end up smaller - with Israel taking control of a belt of land in the east and north of the strip. This would be a "security zone" and anyone who entered it would be "intercepted" by the military.

He made clear these objectives were his personal views. but that he was saying them everywhere. Sa’ar said losing land was the price that “Arabs understand”.

This will play into the worst fears of Palestinians as it evokes for them the core issue - the loss of their lands in the conflicts surrounding Israel’s creation 75 years ago.
They could of course put a security zone on their side of the border, rather than placing people in villages close to the border.

Except - that security zone is already there....

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What if the mad gunman is actually a team of thousands of gunmen and that one house of hostages is surrounded by more houses of mad gunmen. Plus, when the mad gunmen aren't holding people hostage, the buggers are also firing rockets at the surrounding houses containing civilians.

What do you do in this situation? I'd imagine as a civilian living nearby I'd want something to be done about it I reckon.
I'd say there's not a long they CAN do about it, since they are never going to get all the mad gunmen and all that will happen is they'd kill many innocent people and make martyrs of others. So perhaps a good analogy.

Israel has ZERO chance of wiping out Hamas, since it will simply be re-stocked with weapons from Iran, Syria and anywhere else sympathetic to their cause. It is a futile task that will simply kill many more thousands of innocent people, for no gain. In fact the opposite of gain, since worldwide support for Israel will be damaged and Paletinians only more determined to strike Israel again.
 
The creation of the State of Israel was always going to be problematic. Essentially a huge number of people, culturally western, landed in a middle eastern country.
It certainly has seemed that the only way to guarantee its existance is for there to be sporadic violence on both sides that has upheld the status quo.
The idea that there would be long term peace without a viable Palestinian state on its border's is idiotic. And both Israeli governments, Hamas and various other actors seem keen for this not to happen.
Excellent post. Basically the problem is that Israel has western values whilst all it's neighbours have middle eastern values. Israel has been attacked by all it's neighbours so, not surprisingly, has developed a defensive strategy of fighting fire with greater fire. I watched an interview on Sky where the interviewee stated 'for this to be solved Palestine needs to lose it's victim complex and Israel needs to lose it's superior attitude'. Bottom line though is that unless you have reasonable people on both sides then negotiations and progress are impossible. Reasonable and the Middle East are not bed mates!
 
Humanity is fucked, basically.
Can’t disagree there mate.

Will it ever change or will we always stay a greedy selfish society? I’d like to think one day it will change but what would be the catalyst for it?

I’d say God knows but he’s the fucking problem for the most part!!






Disclaimer…. I don’t believe in fairy tales…..
 
Israel is a democratic nation. Its citizens are able to vote regardless of their ethnic origin, religion, level of religious observance, gender, sexuality or other defining characteristic. It's an imperfect voting system though, as it tends to mean that the minority parties set the agenda. But the Israeli people have a choice and with the nature of the coalitions often being fragile, they have to exercise that choice regularly.

Gaza (and the West Bank) last had elections 17 years ago. In Gaza, Hamas won that election and, following a civil war, executed many Fatah members (and also gay people). It rules by terror and has effectively left the people it supposedly represents in a permanent state of war and subjugation, by its refusal to cooperate in any meaningful way with Israel. Yet the 2m people in Gaza have no choice in the matter.

The term "fascist" is often defined as one that doesn't allow any opposition. Now, which one best fits that definition?

For balance to this one sided narrative…..Neither Israel nor the US much liked the outcome of those elections so armed/supported Fatah to overthrow Hamas - which is sort of why they ended up executed. Shortly after elections Hamas also offered to recognise Israel’s right to exist wanting a return to the 1967 borders but that was rejected.
 
The creation of the State of Israel was always going to be problematic. Essentially a huge number of people, culturally western, landed in a middle eastern country.
It certainly has seemed that the only way to guarantee its existance is for there to be sporadic violence on both sides that has upheld the status quo.
The idea that there would be long term peace without a viable Palestinian state on its border's is idiotic. And both Israeli governments, Hamas and various other actors seem keen for this not to happen.
One of the biggest problems in the regions is that the hatred stems from religious hatred. It's not as simple as state land ownership, it goes beyond that to religion. There is also the problem that countries like Iran have a state policy which is to annihilate Israel.

Israel is not going to give up its territory as some want and that only leads to the eventual need for Israel to eliminate threats to that such as Hamas. However, Hamas know this, their goal is centred on encouraging third party involvement and the only counterbalance to that is the fact that the entire region fears western/US involvement.

The US is therefore an absolutely key mediator. It is the only country that can restrain Israel and it is the only country feared by powerful states such as Iran. However the US blew it's neutral position several years ago because of an idiotic move by Trump and now it's led by a clueless 80 year old who doesn't know what day it is.
 
Why not literally cut the country in half across say the Jerusalem line? Do Israel produce anything of note and need the land? That way the Arabs have a coast and border with Egypt etc. I dont think the Israelis help themselves when they go into areas and claim land etc. I cannot see how this will ever end, it’s two extreme ideologies although they share many common things within that, sadly I think they will also target Iran as well and then things will ramp up.
 
Excellent post. Basically the problem is that Israel has western values whilst all it's neighbours have middle eastern values. Israel has been attacked by all it's neighbours so, not surprisingly, has developed a defensive strategy of fighting fire with greater fire. I watched an interview on Sky where the interviewee stated 'for this to be solved Palestine needs to lose it's victim complex and Israel needs to lose it's superior attitude'. Bottom line though is that unless you have reasonable people on both sides then negotiations and progress are impossible. Reasonable and the Middle East are not bed mates!
I kind of agree and disagree, in parts you could be in just another European country, although a large percentage of the population are descendants of Middle Eastern Jewish communities who were expelled despite having roots in said countries that went back 1000s of years, there is still a sizable community in Iran believe it or not, they faced their own difficulties when they arrived in Israel, the country had been founded by European Ashkenazy Jews, the different groups had very little in common and way I digress

The difference is in the occupied territories, it's albatross around the countries neck, I think most secular Israelis would give it back for exchange of some genuine security guarantees, the problem as ever is the religious and secular right wing, who because it was originally part of the old Jewish lands they think it should be part of the new jewish lands
 
I'm saying neither side are legitimate in any conflict be it war or terrorism in terms of the intended or collateral slaughter of innocents. Sorry for your confusion.
No that clarifies.
Neither side are legitimate.
So Israeli’s collective punishment and wilful killing of the innocent is a war crime regardless of the Hamas attack being an awful act of terrorism.

I agree.
 
One of the biggest problems in the regions is that the hatred stems from religious hatred. It's not as simple as state land ownership, it goes beyond that to religion. There is also the problem that countries like Iran have a state policy which is to annihilate Israel.

Israel is not going to give up its territory as some want and that only leads to the eventual need for Israel to eliminate threats to that such as Hamas. However, Hamas know this, their goal is centred on encouraging third party involvement and the only counterbalance to that is the fact that the entire region fears western/US involvement.

The US is therefore an absolutely key mediator. It is the only country that can restrain Israel and it is the only country feared by powerful states such as Iran. However the US blew it's neutral position several years ago because of an idiotic move by Trump and now it's led by a clueless 80 year old who doesn't know what day it is.
There are a fair few Palestinian Christians as well they are not all Muslims, I think people overplay the religious side (many because they think it's cool and edgy) prior to the 90's there was no such thing as militant Islamic groups in Palestine or anywhere else yet they were killing each other, they were secular groups some made up of Muslims and Christians, Israel itself is quite a secular country although the religious right are trying to change things, Jews and Arabs and Muslims and Christians can all live together in fact in many countries they actually do
 
I'd say there's not a long they CAN do about it, since they are never going to get all the mad gunmen and all that will happen is they'd kill many innocent people and make martyrs of others. So perhaps a good analogy.

Israel has ZERO chance of wiping out Hamas, since it will simply be re-stocked with weapons from Iran, Syria and anywhere else sympathetic to their cause. It is a futile task that will simply kill many more thousands of innocent people, for no gain. In fact the opposite of gain, since worldwide support for Israel will be damaged and Paletinians only more determined to strike Israel again.
Ask yourself this, why did Hamas do what it did last week? Why is Israel attracting universal condemnation for quite simply defending itself from continuous attack? It's bizarre that so many people challenge Israel but they don't challenge the aggravating factor which is continued Hamas terrorism. If Hamas didn't do what it did, what is happening now would never have happened. Hamas is responsible for thousands of Palestinian deaths but that's what they want.

I ask again what do you seriously expect them to do? 1000+ Israeli's were murdered last week and Israel is responding. Seriously what is the proper response other than a large military response directed at source? You can't argue that it hasn't been effective because how many Hamas terrorists have jumped the fence since? A ground campaign is imminent and that will reduce Hamas to essentially nothing and the attacks will then ultimately stop.

It's easy for us to cry about humanity whilst sat in our cosy warm homes thousands of miles from these problems. I challenge anyone facing imminent attack to ask for anything else. If it was me then forget humanity, I'd drop two bombs just to make sure if that meant saving the lives of myself, my family and friends.
 
Just seen some footage of an Israeli reserve brigade driving what looks like Hummers with a turret and canon on the top. Not being funny but the driver sat behind a Hummer windscreen will not being funny but the driver pretty vulnerable behind a windscreen and once and something the Ukraine/Russia conflict has shown is an immobilised turret is pretty fucking vulnerable. I am starting to see that so called military super powers tend to get high on their own supply and can learn the reality in a harsh way
The Humvee windscreen is balistic glass so will survive pretty well. Penetration depends on the depth of the glass.
2 layers stops a heavy machine gun at all but close range - 6 stops chain and is possibly stronger than the vehicle armour
 
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