Middle East Conflict

[metalblue]

Also shocking how little care Netanyahu seems to have for the lives of those hostages when he chooses to absolutely flatten the place.

He’s only hitting legitimate Hamas targets. Honest.

 

[halfcenturyup]

Which bit specifically?

About IHL for a state's exemption from article 2(4) in the case of self-defence largely mirroring the domestic laws of the UN members (common law in the UK) that self-defence should only be exercised in relation to real and immediate danger and be proportional to the threat. Which I think was his point.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I think everyone agrees with this analogy but the reality is very different because what do you want to happen to enact it recognising the options on the table? Let's say Israel stops right now but Hamas doesn't and carries on the war it started, what's next then?

What's next for the hostages? Does Israel negotiate their return but at what cost? The release of hundreds of Hamas prisoners? What a cracking deal!

After what happened on the 7th October would you not say that negotiating with Hamas is almost an insult to Israeli's? That's what the US did straight after 9/11, they sat down with Bin Laden and negotiated with Al'Qaeda..... Or maybe not.

As I said in a previous post, Israel has negotiated for the release of hostages with Hamas before.
And what prisoners could Hamas legitimately hope to negotiate for and have any world opinion on their side.
I would say those interned without trial, is definitely a starting point.
If a ceasefire is to be called then dialogue is required first, one way or the other. Get an honest go between into the mix. A broker or two that has the respect of both sides needs to be found as soon as possible.

Where there’s a will there’s a way.

Sorry mate, whilst I agree about a sovereign state being able to defend itself this isn’t that.
This is vengeance and nothing more and all talk of anything else is just bollocks.
When Abedi bombed the arena should we have murdered his whole family to make sure we got them all?
Because that’s what this is now, just keep killing all Palestinians to ensure no more attacks, forget the fact that these are innocent men women and children.

It’s fucking barbaric and should be condemned by anyone who has any compassion or empathy.

Makes me sick thinking about what these kids are going through.

I suspect, with no way of proving one way or the other, that even those who are most pro-Israel in this debate have a niggling doubt in their heads that this Hamas atrocity is exactly the opportunity this particular right wing government were looking for to justify any action they care to take.

I’m not suggesting that the atrocities of 7th of October were known about by intelligence but ignored. No, I imagine they are embarrassed by their security failure but are using this opportunity not only to exact revenge but to justify a push further in the direction of their unspoken plans.

Only time will tell.
But as I say, I suspect it’s a niggling doubt that goes beyond the pro-Palestinian stance in here.

 

[inbetween]

Seems you're dreaming as much as the Israelis are. There's no chance of removing Hamas, let alone Hamas2. It's not a building or even a set of people, it's an ideology. I imagine they are signing up more members than they are losing.

And don't forget what this is doing for Israeli-Arab relations more generally. Iran will be thinking about what its next move is and I doubt it is sending Israel a cake.

There is an ideology though and then there is a physical reality. Gaza is currently surrounded and Hamas only have limited arms. Hamas will want a ceasefire soon, not on humanitarian grounds but rather because it will be losing people and needs to rearm. Playing along with that language just perpetuates the cycle of never-ending violence.

In any event Israel is supported by the west and so it essentially can fight an endless war with Hamas without real issue. I'd say that they've never been closer to removing Hamas, we've never seen a ground campaign of this scale and they've easily split Gaza in two. It's only a matter of time before the physical threat at least is basically gone.

If they otherwise decided to not remove Hamas because it was impossible then yes the war will go on forever, and that also perfectly suits Israel because it has shown that it's quite capable of defending itself... and the cycle continues.

Obviously I'm in favour of Israel removing Hamas and I don't think it's a big issue. I am more worried about the best solution for the Palestinians afterwards and how to hold Israel to account for whatever comes afterwards. That is probably where the west is focusing all of its diplomatic efforts.

Iran won't be thinking anything of the sort, the US will always defend Israel from Iran and Iran would definitely lose badly. The Arab countries also know this, as a result they've condemned Israel but they won't do much more.

 

[Ducado]

The ideology of Hamas may live on I agree but probably not as far as the government of Gaza is concerned.

The centre of Gaza has been split by the Israeli army, it's only going to go one way. To be honest I thought this would be a nightmare urban long war spread over years but the ground campaign has so far been rapid. As it's impossible for Hamas to get arms in it's going to be effectively over with very quickly.

The alternative is otherwise as you say they back off, tolerate Hamas and remain at war forever, either suits Israel. This is because the fact is that Israel is a well supported and probably nuclear armed country whereas Hamas definitely is not any of these so there is only ever one winner.

Perpetual ideological war is perhaps inevitable but the outcome of this physical war is also inevitable. It is very unlikely that Hamas will exist in its current form within 3-4 weeks time. They might reset and rebuild but I don't see how the Palestinians benefit from this cycle so it only makes sense to remove Hamas and keep them removed.


I'm arguing to move the Palestinians temporarily, that is not ethnic cleansing. If Israel invades Gaza and claims it for its own then I will agree, that hasn't happened.

That is unless you think it's better, safer and more appropriate for the Palestinians to live amongst people who decide to build their military infrastructure beneath hospitals?

You do realise that the advances have mainly been in the farmland areas and not any urban area ? Tell me you do? The IDF's own assessment is the operation is going to last a very long time, and time is not something they have because it always hits the tipping point when the Americans have to call a halt

You are pretending you have a better handle on this than the Americans who have repeatedly warned the Israelis that there objectives are unobtainable and unrealistic, who'd have thought we would have an Urban Warfare strategist posting on here by the way the Israeli army has never really fought in an large scale urban war (hardly any armies have because it's too difficult), they did fight an insurgency type war in South Lebanon that did not end very well for them

As for moving the population out it's not going to happen unless they were moved to the Negev no Arab country will take on 2 million refugees do you know what 2 million people actually looks like?

 

[Roachy]

Deary me, I even gave you the bloody links. There are laws which govern what you can do in self-defence, and yes they do require proportionality. It is YOU who questioned it. If you don't believe me, it is on YOU to do some digging, not on me to have to justify my comments to you.

I'm not asking you to justify your comments to me. You just need to corroborate your statement that you made and admitted was an opinion.

 

[inbetween]

You do realise that the advances have mainly been in the farmland areas and not any urban area ? Tell me you do? The IDF's own assessment is the operation is going to last a very long time, and time is not something they have because it always hits the tipping point when the Americans have to call a halt

You are pretending you have a better handle on this than the Americans who have repeatedly warned the Israelis that there objectives are unobtainable and unrealistic, who'd have thought we would have an Urban Warfare strategist posting on here by the way the Israeli army has never really fought in an large scale urban war (hardly any armies have because it's too difficult), they did fight an insurgency type war in South Lebanon that did not end very well for them

As for moving the population out it's not going to happen unless they were moved to the Negev no Arab country will take on 2 million refugees do you know what 2 million people actually looks like?

Why have Israel gone into Gaza if it's too difficult? They have already split Gaza into two and progressed across the entire strip in less than a week. Indeed it is across farmland but they've effectively encircled the space occupied by Hamas. Nothing can go in or out, not water, food and there are no communications and limited arms.

Urban warfare is pretty simple if you're willing to be harsh and cruel which is unfortunately what Israel is doing. The fact is humans cannot survive for longer than a few weeks without basic supplies. A lot of effort is being placed on the tunnels now because that's the only other route in or out.

Fallujah was a difficult point for the Americans and British but then the city wasn't surrounded by an entire army and they also had no effective air support because they couldn't just bomb buildings. The difficulties came because they also had to go door-to-door.

Israel however are shortcutting that because they're just dropping bombs on targets instead. You don't need to spend a day or more clearing buildings if you just blow them up.

 

[BlueAnorak]

You do realise that the advances have mainly been in the farmland areas and not any urban area ? Tell me you do? The IDF's own assessment is the operation is going to last a very long time, and time is not something they have because it always hits the tipping point when the Americans have to call a halt

You are pretending you have a better handle on this than the Americans who have repeatedly warned the Israelis that there objectives are unobtainable and unrealistic, who'd have thought we would have an Urban Warfare strategist posting on here by the way the Israeli army has never really fought in an large scale urban war (hardly any armies have because it's too difficult), they did fight an insurgency type war in South Lebanon that did not end very well for them

As for moving the population out it's not going to happen unless they were moved to the Negev no Arab country will take on 2 million refugees do you know what 2 million people actually looks like?

Israeli forces are currently fighting in Gaza City and methodically clearing buildings block by block using UAVs to spot with assault drones working ahead of the infantry going room to room. Tunnel entrances are being sealed as they find them with listening equipment embedded in the tunnel sealant.
The IDF have been practicing these tactics for 5+ years now. It is not going to be an infantry hell hole for the IDF that many have been predicting.

 

[Cheeky Txiki]

 

[mexico1970]

The people who assaulted him wont be caught because the people on this so called peace mark turn into scousers when they see shit like this.