Middle East Conflict

[cucumberman]

1. Statement by IHRA themselves on the IHRA Definition:

“The definition does not interfere with freedom of speech but leaves room for vigorous criticism of Israel’s government, as the definition itself states that “criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.”

(IHRA)

2. A statement by Professor David Hirsh:

“the IHRA definition “is a framework for thinking about what is antisemitic, not a machine which can automatically designate certain kinds of speech as antisemitic.”

3. A statement by World Jewish Congress:

“the definition is a non-legally binding definition, intended to guide and educate without limiting debate or free speech. Therefore, the definition does not limit any speech per se, as long as it does not enter into legally defined protection from harassment or incitement to violence, just as others are free to openly criticize those who defend themselves from antisemitism.”

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

2 Palestinians in West Bank killed today by the Israeli Forces

In the 1st part of the video, young Palestinians were hanging out. For no rhyme or reason, they were shot. One was hit, slump on the ground. The IF drove closer and observed the Palestinian. When the Palestinian lifted his head, a barrage of shots hit him again.

In the 2nd part of the video, a Palestinian was already shot and was lying on the ground. The IF was a few feet away. The Palestinian lifted, and head shot point blank range.

If this was in US, that is life in prison without parole. But given that more than 100 Palestinians has been killed by IF in West Bank the past two months, why is IF able to kill Palestinians without cause?

The shooters are not just the kind of serial killer, or murderer, but one given an authority to kill.

I’m not going to watch it but this is how they operate and why the 3 hostages, who were apparently waving white flags, were terminated.

We already know that they can take potshots at unarmed children, this is just further evidence that they are not acting as an Army, but as a militia more akin to ISIS or the Wagner group.

 

[borassic]

IDF and Netanyahu are both terrorists, now committing war crimes against their own!

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Oh look at all the usual suspects telling Jews they're being sensitive about antisemitism. One of the key elements of defining what is racist is the perception of those victims and the impact it has on them. You, who have never been subject to racism, simply have no right to lecture someone whose ancestors & co-religionists have been murdered in their millions simply because of the religion they happened to be born into and practice.

I suspect you're including the "examples" in the "definition". The preamble makes plain how much effort went into agreeing the definition, but then the examples were tacked on, and it was inevitably going to be contentious to link a definition of antisemitism to the policy of the Israeli state.

Take "Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor." I may misunderstand the intent behind that, but how is the concept of a "Jewish state" not an endeavour based on race? (That's without the current situation where all Israelis are equal but some are more equal than others.) But is that different from Kurds wanting a Kurdish state? Or "England for the English"? Maybe not, but Israel was of course based on endeavouring to create a Jewish state.

In "The Jewish state" Herzl seems to think Anti-Semitism got worse when Jews were emancipated as people didn't like Jews entering professions from which they'd previosusly been excluded. And if Jews didn't join the Zionist project, either because they wanted to assimilate where they are or just didn't agree with founding a new Jewish state, then if not actually Anti-Semitic they were partially causing Anti-Semitism. And that puts a question mark over another example of AS, to say that Jews (any Jew?) are more loyal to Israel than the "nationality".

If someone uses the term "you black bastard" or "you paki bastard" it's clearly & blatantly racist in most people's eyes. But there are still some who will argue it's not, as the victim is black or Pakistani.

If there was an equivalent internationally agreed definition of racism based on the colour of a person's skin, and the above were examples of that, some would still say "Ah yes, but they're only examples".

To answer your second point, whatever the modern and often pejorative interpretations put on the word "zionist", at its core it expresses a desire for a Jewish state. That's a state where the minimum requirement is that you're safe from persecution simply for being Jewish. And given that there are nearly 1.75m Muslim citizens, who have parliamentary representation and freedom of religion, I'm not sure that's a racist endeavour. India and Pakistan, are far more egregious examples of 'racist states' where Muslims (in India) and non-Muslims (in Pakistan) are actively persecuted and even killed, but I bet you've never had a word to say about that.

Your third point is actually laughable and defies belief. You're saying that Jews brought antisemitism on themselves by daring to be educated, assimilating and entering the professions. If only we'd kept ourselves out of the mainstream and stayed in our ghettos as cobblers, tailors and shopkeepers eh?

You don't come across as a latent antisemite Vic and your posts have a veneer of intelligence, unlike the frothing at the mouth of a few other posters. When you scratch the surface of those posts though, there's a rich vein of ignorance and stupidity, which is a shame.

 

[cucumberman]

I’m not going to watch it but this is how they operate and why the 3 hostages, who were apparently waving white flags, were terminated.

We already know that they can take potshots at unarmed children, this is just further evidence that they are not acting as an Army, but as a militia more akin to ISIS or the Wagner group.

I'll share just one example of not acting as an army. Will add more in this thread whenever the right-wing side of Israel is holier than thou.

Consider Likud. Likud was founded in 1977, by then PM Menachem Begin, who founded the Tnuat Haherut, the party that is part of the newly created state of Israel. The Tnuat Haherut at the time preached ultranationalism explicitly expounding of racial superiority. It has been involved with several potshot attacks, just one example is the Deir Yassin Massacre that killed 240 Palestinian men, women and children.

The majority of today's government is Likud. But also has ties with other right-wing party. One of which is the Religious Zionist Party. The leader of the Religious Zionist Party....is Bezalel Smotrich, who is also in the Likud cabinet the current Finance Minister, the Minister in Defence Ministry, and the Governor of West Bank.

Left-wing Israelis are against the Religious Zionist Party. Again, just one example, 120 law professors of the Israel Law Professors Society, posted a position paper that validates the claim that Religious Zionist Party of Israel practices apartheid (March, 2023). The law professors are not Palestinians or non-Israelis. Each and every one of the 120 lawyer professor is a left-wing Israeli. Roll back a month prior, specifically 26 February 2023, where the Israel settlers attacked and razed the Huwara Town of Palestine and its 3 nearby villages. This is called the Huwara Massacre. 1 Palestinian killed and more than 100 injured from the arson and aggression. Smotrich posted on Twitter that Huwara Town should be wiped out.

(see https://www.timesofisrael.com/israe...town-of-huwara-says-senior-minister-smotrich/).

And herein lies a wonderment. Smotrich's house is in the illegal settlement of OPT.

That is just one example. There's Ben Gvir, Maier Jahane, Yariv Levin, Zvika Fogel, etc.

But it's a waste of time for some people who conflates such explanation as antisemitic, when IHRA themselves can discern the definition between criticizing a Jew for being Jew, and criticizing a government for being inhuman. More so a government that is right-wing.

Edit:

Typo. It's Maier Kahane, not Jahane, because I mistyped J instead of K. While typing, if anyone is interested in Maier Kahane, he was identified, globally, as the extremist racist and terrorist. In 2007, he was convicted in Israel, by law, for having incited racism and supporting a terrorist organisation.

Just to do a pub quiz here, who is that one person that Maier Kahane mentored by? That one person is another minister, whose house is also in the illegal settlement of occupied Hebron.

 

[cucumberman]

IDF and Netanyahu are both terrorists, now committing war crimes against their own!

If treaded lightly so as not to be infuriated by the term 'terrorist' for the right-wing, the term, albeit a misnomer, is 'ultranationalist'. Examples include Kach (founded 1974) with its offshoot Otzma Yehudit (founded 2012), and Kahane Chai (in West Bank). The current minister cabinet that are mainly Likud and Shas, also has 3 ministers for Otzma Yehudit and 3 ministers from the Religious Zionist Party. One of the 3 ministers of Otzma Yehudit has been suspended from the cabinet last month because one of his ideas in response to 7th October was to use nuclear weapon.

 

[dublinblue12]

Tragic news about the hostages, if anything hopefully it's the straw that breaks the camels back and the Israeli civilians turn on their barbaric leaders and put an end to the ethnic cleansing the regime is currently committing, in place of a ceasefire and some kind of peace deal, without Hamas

 

[The blue phantom]

Same fuckin posters foaming at the mouth hoping to get the thread pulled by labelling posters Anti semitic and Mods not moderating. Amazing that they keep stating there's dozens of post to back up their argument yet they can't provide a single fuckin One. I'm still waiting for these folk to condemn the Jewish posters post who wanted rid of all Palestinians?

 

[west didsblue]

Same fuckin posters foaming at the mouth hoping to get the thread pulled by labelling posters Anti semitic and Mods not moderating. Amazing that they keep stating there's dozens of post to back up their argument yet they can't provide a single fuckin One. I'm still waiting for these folk to condemn the Jewish posters post who wanted rid of all Palestinians?

There’s only one or two blatant antisemites on here. They’re the ones who accuse people of being racial supremacists because they don’t agree that Israel should be dismantled and its Jewish population dispersed to any country they want that will take them.

For what it’s worth I’ve been consistently critical of Netanyahu’s government policies and actions, and I believe they created the environment where a terrorist outrage by Hamas was inevitable. I am not an apologist for Israeli government action and never have been. Anyone who wants to criticise Netanyahu’s government and its settler backers fill your boots, you won’t get any AS accusations from me, but if people start denying the Jewish people the right to their own country in Israel then that’s a different matter.

 

[Vic]

Oh look at all the usual suspects telling Jews they're being sensitive about antisemitism. One of the key elements of defining what is racist is the perception of those victims and the impact it has on them. You, who have never been subject to racism, simply have no right to lecture someone whose ancestors & co-religionists have been murdered in their millions simply because of the religion they happened to be born into and practice.


If someone uses the term "you black bastard" or "you paki bastard" it's clearly & blatantly racist in most people's eyes. But there are still some who will argue it's not, as the victim is black or Pakistani.

If there was an equivalent internationally agreed definition of racism based on the colour of a person's skin, and the above were examples of that, some would still say "Ah yes, but they're only examples".

To answer your second point, whatever the modern and often pejorative interpretations put on the word "zionist", at its core it expresses a desire for a Jewish state. That's a state where the minimum requirement is that you're safe from persecution simply for being Jewish. And given that there are nearly 1.75m Muslim citizens, who have parliamentary representation and freedom of religion, I'm not sure that's a racist endeavour. India and Pakistan, are far more egregious examples of 'racist states' where Muslims (in India) and non-Muslims (in Pakistan) are actively persecuted and even killed, but I bet you've never had a word to say about that.

Your third point is actually laughable and defies belief. You're saying that Jews brought antisemitism on themselves by daring to be educated, assimilating and entering the professions. If only we'd kept ourselves out of the mainstream and stayed in our ghettos as cobblers, tailors and shopkeepers eh?

You don't come across as a latent antisemite Vic and your posts have a veneer of intelligence, unlike the frothing at the mouth of a few other posters. When you scratch the surface of those posts though, there's a rich vein of ignorance and stupidity, which is a shame.

I'll take the last bit (not the very last). For the bit you found laughable I was just citing from Herzl's argument for why a Jewish state was needed because of anti-semitism.

"The unfortunate Jews are now carrying the seeds of Anti-Semitism into England; they have already introduced it into America."

You mentioned the ghettos. So did Herzl:

"In the principal countries where Anti-Semitism prevails, it does so as a result of the emancipation of the Jews. When civilized nations awoke to the inhumanity of discriminatory legislation and enfranchised us, our enfranchisement came too late. It was no longer possible to remove our disabilities in our old homes. For we had, curiously enough, developed while in the Ghetto into a bourgeois people, and we stepped out of it only to enter into fierce competition with the middle classes."

​

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

I did think this was a thread in the politics forum about war. Seems that its now about religion and the killing of innocents comes second.

 

[BayernMan]

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

I did think this was a thread in the politics forum about war. Seems that its now about religion and the killing of innocents comes second.

Good point. Sad news. The most moral Army in the world bombed a school being used as shelter and then left a camera man reporting on it to bleed out. Why not try to save him, unless there is a general intention kill journalists?

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/al-jazeera-cameraman-killed-gaza-network-confirms-2023-12-15/

I'm not surprised that a military that can't tell the difference between kids playing football on a beach and paramilitaries, also shoots escaped hostages holding white flags.

Would that suggest that they have also been shooting Palestinian civilians carrying white flags?

 

[west didsblue]

Tragic news about the hostages, if anything hopefully it's the straw that breaks the camels back and the Israeli civilians turn on their barbaric leaders and put an end to the ethnic cleansing the regime is currently committing, in place of a ceasefire and some kind of peace deal, without Hamas

Can’t disagree with that.

Unfortunately Hamas aren’t going anywhere unless the Palestinian people turn against them or Israel finishes the job without inspiring a replacement group with the same ideology. Both are equally unlikely to happen.

 

[dublinblue12]

Can’t disagree with that.

Unfortunately Hamas aren’t going anywhere unless the Palestinian people turn against them or Israel finishes the job without inspiring a replacement group with the same ideology. Both are equally unlikely to happen.

Yes, according to the bbc, Hamas support is growing in the West Bank now due to the oppression from the settlers and IDF provoking unrest, and obviously the indiscrimate dropping of 28000 bombs in under 2 months on civilians in Gaza amongst other barbarity hasn't helped . The outlook doesnt look good.

 

[cucumberman]

A new day a new way for IDF to kill Palestinians.

Where other country/state on earth that killed humans by crushing them with a bulldozer?

A medic tent of injured people, crushed by bulldozer.

Was this action inspired by the suggestion of Aryeh Yitzhak King, deputy mayor of Jerusalem, on killing Palestinians with D-9 bulldozer while they are alive?

 

[Gray]

It is never going to stop, too much animosity from both sides.

Shooting people waving a white flag is despicable, how many times has it happened? They have to come clean when it is their own people.

The World is fucked.

 

[cucumberman]

It is never going to stop, too much animosity from both sides.

Shooting people waving a white flag is despicable, how many times has it happened? They have to come clean when it is their own people.

The World is fucked.

Not their first time

Remember Thomas Hurndall, 2003

“Tom Hurndall, 22, died after being shot in broad daylight by an Israeli soldier who later said his commanders had issued orders allowing him to shoot even unarmed civilians. Sergeant Taysir Hayb was convicted of manslaughter by an Israeli court and jailed for eight years for shooting Mr Hurndall in April 2003 as the Briton tried to rescue children who froze in fear after the soldier opened fire.

Yesterday a jury at St Pancras coroner's court in London found Mr Hurndall had been unlawfully killed and deliberately shot by the soldier "with the intention of killing him". Lawyers for the Hurndall family said this amounted to a finding that the peace activist had been murdered.
Last week the same court found that a journalist, James Miller, had been murdered after being shot by an Israeli soldier three weeks after Mr Hurndall, and just one mile away in southern Gaza.“

Calls for UK to act over Britons shot dead in Gaza | UK news | The Guardian

The attorney general was last night called on to seek war crimes charges against five Israeli officers after an inquest jury found that a soldier under their command intentionally killed a British peace activist in Gaza.

amp.theguardian.com

 

[cucumberman]

Because of how us fellow Britons have been killed, nay murdered in cold blood, by IDF, even on unarmed civilians

and the blasphemy that since 2003 we have urged for war crimes.

Yet until now, 20 years and counting. Instead of respite that should have been against what is IDF 20 years ago, this year the IDFs are being assisted to “carry on, move along, nothing to see”

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

UK Foreign Secretary calls for Ceasefire, citing ‘too many civilians killed’.

No fucking shit, Sherlock! Pity you’re so late to the party, you sack of shite.