Middle East Conflict

[BayernMan]

 

[inbetween]

I think it's a bit more complicated than that actually, and there is more possibility for peace than you allow in what you write here. Hamas revised their charter in 2017, indicating an openness to a Palestinian state with the 1967 borders. The exact phrase they used is:

Without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.

Obviously, they're trying to have it both ways with that statement, but it indicates more openness to a political solution than Israel wants us to believe is possible. Interesting, albeit very long, podcast on the history of Hamas from a Palestinian scholar here: https://thedigradio.com/podcast/hamas-w-tareq-baconi/

The other thing that's important to remember is that Hamas isn't the Palestinian people. You can't be like "Hamas doesn't want peace" and think that's the end of the matter. There are other political and civil society organisations that Israel could be talking to if it wanted to. The trouble is it deliberately and systematically marginalised them over decades.

Look you have to view it this way. Israel is not going to fight for a Palestinian state, it just isn't. Right now as far as Israel is concerned it was attacked on 7th October and anything it does is therefore justified. We all know that the level of their response is completely unjustified but I honestly don't know how we can change that?

Russia and Iran are currently the most heavily sanctioned countries in the world and they haven't changed tact at all. We can halt the flow of arms but actually the only country that is important in terms of arms is the US and the US isn't going to fudge its arms industry for a state that it doesn't even recognise. The UK and Europe export an irrelevant number of arms to Israel compared to the US so our influence is actually zero in comparison.

A Palestinian state has to be negotiated and brokered because if it was that simple then why would there need to be a negotiation? Israel will always oppose a Palestinian state which potentially infringes upon its security and Hamas represents exactly that. So until Hamas surrenders then what is going to change?

Regurgitated criticism of Israel doesn't change the fact that Israel is a modern nuclear armed state and it isn't going to lose this war, so why doesn't Hamas surrender? The only curve ball I can see coming soon is if Iran and others become involved and then all bets are off.

I feel the policy of the west right now given what's happening in Ukraine is basically how the hell do we avoid WW3...

 

[KPXBLN]

Look you have to view it this way. Israel is not going to fight for a Palestinian state, it just isn't. Right now as far as Israel is concerned it was attacked on 7th October and anything it does is therefore justified. We all know that the level of their response is completely unjustified but I honestly don't know how we can change that?

Russia and Iran are currently the most heavily sanctioned countries in the world and they haven't changed tact at all. We can halt the flow of arms but actually the only country that is important in terms of arms is the US and the US isn't going to fudge its arms industry for a state that it doesn't even recognise. The UK and Europe export an irrelevant number of arms to Israel compared to the US so our influence is actually zero in comparison.

A Palestinian state has to be negotiated and brokered because if it was that simple then why would there need to be a negotiation? Israel will always oppose a Palestinian state which potentially infringes upon its security and Hamas represents exactly that. So until Hamas surrenders then what is going to change?

Regurgitated criticism of Israel doesn't change the fact that Israel is a modern nuclear armed state and it isn't going to lose this war, so why doesn't Hamas surrender? The only curve ball I can see coming soon is if Iran and others become involved and then all bets are off.

I feel the policy of the west right now given what's happening in Ukraine is basically how the hell do we avoid WW3...

I agree that Israel won't fight for a Palestinian state, that much is obvious; if anything it's spent most of the last 75 years fighting against that prospect. My point is that Israel's hostility to Hamas, or Hamas's stance on Israel, aren't the most important limiting factors on longterm peace - it's the refusal of Israel's allies, especially the USA, to apply any pressure at all on Israel to negotiate. (Europe isn't irrelevant though - Germany supplies about a quarter of Israel's arms.) But obviously, the prospect of western countries cutting Israel off is, for now, sadly extremely remote.

 

[BayernMan]

Look you have to view it this way. Israel is not going to fight for a Palestinian state, it just isn't. Right now as far as Israel is concerned it was attacked on 7th October and anything it does is therefore justified. We all know that the level of their response is completely unjustified but I honestly don't know how we can change that?

Russia and Iran are currently the most heavily sanctioned countries in the world and they haven't changed tact at all. We can halt the flow of arms but actually the only country that is important in terms of arms is the US and the US isn't going to fudge its arms industry for a state that it doesn't even recognise. The UK and Europe export an irrelevant number of arms to Israel compared to the US so our influence is actually zero in comparison.

A Palestinian state has to be negotiated and brokered because if it was that simple then why would there need to be a negotiation? Israel will always oppose a Palestinian state which potentially infringes upon its security and Hamas represents exactly that. So until Hamas surrenders then what is going to change?

Regurgitated criticism of Israel doesn't change the fact that Israel is a modern nuclear armed state and it isn't going to lose this war, so why doesn't Hamas surrender? The only curve ball I can see coming soon is if Iran and others become involved and then all bets are off.

I feel the policy of the west right now given what's happening in Ukraine is basically how the hell do we avoid WW3...

I get why Israeli’s don’t want a Palestinian state but I don’t know how their approach improves their security. Whether a Palestinian state exists or not they will still have to deal with the neighbors and the ripples the Palestinian issue causes in the region. It’s one of the chief reasons Hezbollah exists. Being a nuclear state means nothing if your targets are your immediate neighbors on top of the M.A.D that nukes present. End of the day Israel will need to make true peace with its regional states cause I don’t see Iran, Syria, or Lebanon going anywhere and the Palestinian issue leaves Israel’s enemies useful proxies to undermine Israeli peace and security.

 

[BayernMan]

Biden admin is trying to backing away from the **** show a little too late…

 

[LesBleuMiserable]

The PLO has recognized Israel’s right to exist and publicly denounced terrorism so much so that they are dubbed as security subcontractors for the IDF. Why didn’t the Israeli government come to a final settlement with the PLO in the West Bank? Just cause Hamas exists in Gaza I don’t see why the Israeli government didn’t just go ahead and discuss a truce with Palestinians under the PLO. One could argue that doing so would further disempower Hamas by showing the world but most importantly Palestinians that Israel and Palestinians can coexist while rogue actors such as Hamas are the obstacle. Instead we see rising violence in the West Bank and a growing pro Hamas sentiment in the West Bank…

They have always wanted it all. Just the world was fooled and they and their media darlings cover up the new holocaust.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Those little’ens really are starving. We can all agree that it shouldn’t be happening, can’t we all say with one voice that it has to stop?

 

[BayernMan]

 

[BayernMan]

 

[Vic]

Keeping it real?
Don't bring that kind of shit to Bluemoon!

Israel is willing to trade Palestinians for Israelis at a rate of 10:1, and the UN just said that Hamas has been shown to have raped (been raping) hostages, and Hamas won’t tell them who and how many are still alive…while Israeli is demanding ALL of them back (shock horror!).

Colour me crazy, but the end seems a fairly straightforward construct, doesn’t it?

When Israel can take hostages (sorry, detain people) at will, the rate of exchange isn't particularly relevant.