The blue phantom
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Middle East Conflict
- Thread starter The blue phantom
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The Future’s Blue!
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inchy14
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Succinct lol.
mancity2012_eamo
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I won’t get involved…….
But I’ll drop this here.
But I’ll drop this here.
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super_city_si
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The Future’s Blue!
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That’s war crimes, right there. Unless I no longer understand LOAC/RoE, there is no excuse for this unless you say it’s an accident. How many accidnts can you have.
Just as I type, an Israeli gimp comes on and says it was an accident, with a smile on his face.
When will the western media hold them to account? Everybody has told them to fucking stop.
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ZenHalfTimeCrock
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For those who have the time (because this will involve a lot of commitment), I would recommend reading some reputable history books and on-the-ground journalism about the longer history of this conflict. The ones I have got through so far have me provisionally thinking that the IDF reside in exactly the same moral sewer as Hamas, Islamic Jihad, al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Hezbollah et al.
Here are some examples.
This is Robert Fisk writing about the immediate aftermath of the Sabra & Shatila Massacre. It's an extract from his book Pity The Nation about the Lebanese Civil War. I would recommend it unreservedly.
This massacre of at least 800 Palestinian civilians itself was orchestrated the IDF and - in particular - future Israeli PM Ariel Sharon, who was also implicated in the earlier Qibya Massacre, though it was carried out by Christian Phalangists. The Phalangists were flown in from the south in Israeli Hercules transport aircraft. They were then given weapons, uniforms and US military rations. Then they were sent into the Palestinian camps to perpetrate the slaughter. The Israelis remained in contact while the massacre happened, watching with field glasses and dropping flares from fighter aircraft overnight so the Phalange could see what they were doing. What they were doing mainly involved acts of rape and the murder of children/babies. Fisk then takes up the story:
Then there's his former partner Lara Marlowe. Her book Love In A Time Of War is first-rate, especially her account of the Qana Massacre. Naftali Bennett, another future Israeli PM, has been criticized for his role in that one. Excluding Netanyahu, that makes it four Israeli Prime Ministers that have been responsible for acts of terrorism, the other two being Begin (Irgun), and Shamir (Lehi/Stern Gang).
Fisk wrote about Qana too. See here:
No wonder he ended up writing this:
As far as academic histories go, Avi Shlaim's The Iron Wall is superb and generally enjoys a good reputation. What I liked about it is the fact that he succeeds in putting you right in the heads of some Israeli politicians and what they were thinking. And they weren't all 'bad guys' in this instance.
But Netanyahu is. Shlaim’s study mentions that Netanyahu was once secretly videotaped during his first term of office saying that the Palestinians should be repeatedly beaten up ‘until it is unbearable’. After the assassination of Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin in 1995, his widow refused to shake Netanyahu’s hand because of the part she felt he played in inciting hatred towards her husband. But she was moved by the sincerity and warmth of PLO leader Yasser Arafat when he visited her in person to offer his condolences. “Sometimes”, she observed, “I feel that we can find a common language with Arabs more easily than we can with the Jewish extremists”. Arafat’s handshake, she explained, symbolised for her the hope for peace, whereas Netanyahu’s handshake represented no such hope.
When it comes to Hamas, the only book I have read on them is Hamas Contained by Tareq Baconi. Went for it because it was recent. It was quite good but I wanted to know how Hamas justify what they do Islamically and Baconi doesn't tell you. I knew that they are not like ISIS or al-Qaeda (in the sense that they don't appeal to passages like the 'sword verse' in the Qur'an) because they issued a statement condemning 9/11 three days after it, and got criticised by al-Qaeda for doing so.
Al-Qaeda's leaders condemned them for their hypocrisy: how could Hamas criticize attacks on US civilians but think it was fine to mount suicide attacks against Israeli ones? The short answer is that they consider Israel to be a wholly militarized society. So there are no 'innocent civilians' as such.
Which is nonsense, of course. Some Israelis refuse to serve in the army. They are conscientious objectors. Others are ultra-Orthodox Jews who are exempted from military service. Additionally, reservists do not prepare themselves for battle until they are called to service, nor do they take part in fighting unless they are called. Plus, children can hardly be regarded as combatants, and they have been directly targeted in some attacks mounted by Palestinian jihadists.
As for the Quranic passages, I reckon Hamas are probably misinterpreting Surah 2:194 and 42:40-43, which are taken by mainstream Islamic scholars to be about restraining the manner in which Muslims fight in combat, and do not justify murdering non-combatants like children and the elderly even if that is what your adversary is doing. Might also be just worth mentioning that there are many hadiths attesting to non-combatant immunity, and juristic opinions that overwhelmingly reinforce that view.
Back to the books, Martin Bunton's The Palestinian-Israeli Conflict: A Very Short Introduction is very good. At 130 pages it can be got through quickly.
Next up for me will be Shlomo Ben-Ami's Scars of War, Wounds of Peace: The Israeli–Arab Tragedy.
Ben-Ami is an academic historian and former diplomat who comes across very well in Shlaim's study. He was at the 2000 Camp David Summit as part of Ehud Barak's negotiating team and dealt directly with Arafat. So am looking forward to reading his impressions.
Hope this post proves to be useful in some way.
Here are some examples.
This is Robert Fisk writing about the immediate aftermath of the Sabra & Shatila Massacre. It's an extract from his book Pity The Nation about the Lebanese Civil War. I would recommend it unreservedly.
This massacre of at least 800 Palestinian civilians itself was orchestrated the IDF and - in particular - future Israeli PM Ariel Sharon, who was also implicated in the earlier Qibya Massacre, though it was carried out by Christian Phalangists. The Phalangists were flown in from the south in Israeli Hercules transport aircraft. They were then given weapons, uniforms and US military rations. Then they were sent into the Palestinian camps to perpetrate the slaughter. The Israelis remained in contact while the massacre happened, watching with field glasses and dropping flares from fighter aircraft overnight so the Phalange could see what they were doing. What they were doing mainly involved acts of rape and the murder of children/babies. Fisk then takes up the story:
SABRA AND SHATILA By Robert Fisk
www.countercurrents.org
Then there's his former partner Lara Marlowe. Her book Love In A Time Of War is first-rate, especially her account of the Qana Massacre. Naftali Bennett, another future Israeli PM, has been criticized for his role in that one. Excluding Netanyahu, that makes it four Israeli Prime Ministers that have been responsible for acts of terrorism, the other two being Begin (Irgun), and Shamir (Lehi/Stern Gang).
Fisk wrote about Qana too. See here:
No wonder he ended up writing this:
As far as academic histories go, Avi Shlaim's The Iron Wall is superb and generally enjoys a good reputation. What I liked about it is the fact that he succeeds in putting you right in the heads of some Israeli politicians and what they were thinking. And they weren't all 'bad guys' in this instance.
But Netanyahu is. Shlaim’s study mentions that Netanyahu was once secretly videotaped during his first term of office saying that the Palestinians should be repeatedly beaten up ‘until it is unbearable’. After the assassination of Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin in 1995, his widow refused to shake Netanyahu’s hand because of the part she felt he played in inciting hatred towards her husband. But she was moved by the sincerity and warmth of PLO leader Yasser Arafat when he visited her in person to offer his condolences. “Sometimes”, she observed, “I feel that we can find a common language with Arabs more easily than we can with the Jewish extremists”. Arafat’s handshake, she explained, symbolised for her the hope for peace, whereas Netanyahu’s handshake represented no such hope.
When it comes to Hamas, the only book I have read on them is Hamas Contained by Tareq Baconi. Went for it because it was recent. It was quite good but I wanted to know how Hamas justify what they do Islamically and Baconi doesn't tell you. I knew that they are not like ISIS or al-Qaeda (in the sense that they don't appeal to passages like the 'sword verse' in the Qur'an) because they issued a statement condemning 9/11 three days after it, and got criticised by al-Qaeda for doing so.
Al-Qaeda's leaders condemned them for their hypocrisy: how could Hamas criticize attacks on US civilians but think it was fine to mount suicide attacks against Israeli ones? The short answer is that they consider Israel to be a wholly militarized society. So there are no 'innocent civilians' as such.
Which is nonsense, of course. Some Israelis refuse to serve in the army. They are conscientious objectors. Others are ultra-Orthodox Jews who are exempted from military service. Additionally, reservists do not prepare themselves for battle until they are called to service, nor do they take part in fighting unless they are called. Plus, children can hardly be regarded as combatants, and they have been directly targeted in some attacks mounted by Palestinian jihadists.
As for the Quranic passages, I reckon Hamas are probably misinterpreting Surah 2:194 and 42:40-43, which are taken by mainstream Islamic scholars to be about restraining the manner in which Muslims fight in combat, and do not justify murdering non-combatants like children and the elderly even if that is what your adversary is doing. Might also be just worth mentioning that there are many hadiths attesting to non-combatant immunity, and juristic opinions that overwhelmingly reinforce that view.
Back to the books, Martin Bunton's The Palestinian-Israeli Conflict: A Very Short Introduction is very good. At 130 pages it can be got through quickly.
Next up for me will be Shlomo Ben-Ami's Scars of War, Wounds of Peace: The Israeli–Arab Tragedy.
Ben-Ami is an academic historian and former diplomat who comes across very well in Shlaim's study. He was at the 2000 Camp David Summit as part of Ehud Barak's negotiating team and dealt directly with Arafat. So am looking forward to reading his impressions.
Hope this post proves to be useful in some way.
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