Middle East Conflict

Palerider said:
Interesting post. Here's some of my thoughts.

Historically there seems to be a general acceptance (from reasonable historians) that both sets of people have a right to the land. Classing one group as the immigrants or, as Suella Braverman would say 'invaders', just does not hold.

I totally agree Israel, a western thinking population, is in the wrong place but where else could they have settled after being murdered in their millions in Russia and 'civilised' Europe? Also remember it was not just the German Nazis who hated the Jews. There were millions of collaborators in conquered France, Netherlands etc who were quite happy to point out Jews who needed to be gassed.

The number of Jews living in muslim/Arab countries is minimal. Surely that tells it's own story?

It's war, and in war the victors usually kill more people than the losers. In war attrocities happen every single day. That's what war is, killing people. But if the Palestinians had the weaponry that the Israelis have then this war would be over now with millions of Jews dead. You may disagree with that statement but it is at the heart of why people (and western governments) sympathise with the Israeli side, it's the lesser evil in a war of evil intent.

Hopefully a satisfactory compromise will be found but a compromise requires reasonable people who can accept not 'winning' and that appears to be beyond many in this conflict.
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The ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people from Europe in the last century was an abomination that we hoped we would never see the likes of again.
Israel has become what they hate.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
The ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people from Europe in the last century was an abomination that we hoped we would never see the likes of again.
Israel has become what they hate.
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That's the saddest thing about all this. Until Netanyahu and his Likud enablers are in the ground, any degree of de-escalation is impossible.

And I've long since lost hope of Western intervention.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
It wasn’t just the last century. It had been going on for hundreds of years.
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Longshanks (I may be wrong here) did a great job of kicking out the Jews. And obviously keeping their possessions. Thankfully the Jews settled in central Poland so happy ending.
 
Koniec said:
Longshanks (I may be wrong here) did a great job of kicking out the Jews. And obviously keeping their possessions. Thankfully the Jews settled in central Poland so happy ending.
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Yes, Edward I was really cunty to the Jews but that wasn’t the start of it.

www.historic-uk.com

The Pogroms of 1189 and 1190 - Historic UK

Some of the worst atrocities committed against European Jews in the Middle Ages took place in England in the late 12th century...
www.historic-uk.com www.historic-uk.com
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Yes, Edward I was really cunty to the Jews but that wasn’t the start of it.

www.historic-uk.com

The Pogroms of 1189 and 1190 - Historic UK

Some of the worst atrocities committed against European Jews in the Middle Ages took place in England in the late 12th century...
www.historic-uk.com www.historic-uk.com
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Iirc he did it to fund his wars, especially v the Jocks. There’s a book called Borderlands, it was recommended by a guy on here. What those poor buggers endured is heartbreaking.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Yes, Edward I was really cunty to the Jews but that wasn’t the start of it.

www.historic-uk.com

The Pogroms of 1189 and 1190 - Historic UK

Some of the worst atrocities committed against European Jews in the Middle Ages took place in England in the late 12th century...
www.historic-uk.com www.historic-uk.com
Click to expand...

A complicated history to say the least. One Jew being worth 12 Christians at one point.

They certainly got harsh treatment at the hands of many rulers and for a long time but weren't unique in that sense.

The Romani have suffered equal mistreatment, persecution and genocide.

Israel was always a stupid idea because it tried to right one wrong by creating another.

No one would be arsed about the region nowadays if Jews and Arabs just lived side by side from the beginning. The fact that Israel had to be such an extreme creation from the start stored up problems for the future.
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
A complicated history to say the least. One Jew being worth 12 Christians at one point.

They certainly got harsh treatment at the hands of many rulers and for a long time but weren't unique in that sense.

The Romani have suffered equal mistreatment, persecution and genocide.
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Yeah, I’m not so sure the Romani would be quite so keen on having a homeland.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
The ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people from Europe in the last century was an abomination that we hoped we would never see the likes of again.
Israel has become what they hate.
Click to expand...
There are only 15.8 million Jews in the entire world yet they seem to be detested by both left and right ideologies (communism and fascism and much inbetween) as well as hard line Muslims (which I class as an ideology). It's some feat, getting that lot to line up on the same side. My theory is that, because the Jews tend to create successful societies, they must be eradicated by the other ideological driven groups so that their own (inferior?) ideologies may prosper.

I think it's comforting hyperbole to suggest Israel have become Nazi like (if that's what you are intimating). The Nazis (and many others) wanted to kill a Jew, any Jew, with every single bullet. Since the start of this latest round of this eternal war around 50,000 Palestinians have been killed. That represents less than 1% of the Palestinian population, so, considering the military advantage, length of this war and bombs dropped, it's nowhere near the level of death Israel could have achieved if killing every Palestinian was the aim.

I also think Israel is in the same position as the USA were with Japan at the end of the second World War. Do they fight the Japanese house to house, building to building and lose an estimated 250,000 to 1 million men? Or, do they use their military might and drop nuclear bombs with upto 500,000 Japanese casualties but no USA casualties?

War is legalised murder, young men killing young men over old mens ideals. I've yet to see a war where 'war crimes' are not commited. Modern weapons mean that civilian areas can , and are often, bombed in order to lessen the support and morale for a war.

We also have a situation where a negotiated surrender to prevent their own citizens suffering any longer seems to have never been considered by the 'losing' side. Unforgiveable if concern for your own people was paramount, as it should be for every government.
 
Palerider said:
There are only 15.8 million Jews in the entire world yet they seem to be detested by both left and right ideologies (communism and fascism and much inbetween) as well as hard line Muslims (which I class as an ideology). It's some feat, getting that lot to line up on the same side. My theory is that, because the Jews tend to create successful societies, they must be eradicated by the other ideological driven groups so that their own (inferior?) ideologies may prosper.

I think it's comforting hyperbole to suggest Israel have become Nazi like (if that's what you are intimating). The Nazis (and many others) wanted to kill a Jew, any Jew, with every single bullet. Since the start of this latest round of this eternal war around 50,000 Palestinians have been killed. That represents less than 1% of the Palestinian population, so, considering the military advantage, length of this war and bombs dropped, it's nowhere near the level of death Israel could have achieved if killing every Palestinian was the aim.

I also think Israel is in the same position as the USA were with Japan at the end of the second World War. Do they fight the Japanese house to house, building to building and lose an estimated 250,000 to 1 million men? Or, do they use their military might and drop nuclear bombs with upto 500,000 Japanese casualties but no USA casualties?

War is legalised murder, young men killing young men over old mens ideals. I've yet to see a war where 'war crimes' are not commited. Modern weapons mean that civilian areas can , and are often, bombed in order to lessen the support and morale for a war.

We also have a situation where a negotiated surrender to prevent their own citizens suffering any longer seems to have never been considered by the 'losing' side. Unforgiveable if concern for your own people was paramount, as it should be for every government.
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Thanks for this post. Perhaps the most warped and over-thinking apologism for Israeli genocide in a long time.
 
Palerider said:
There are only 15.8 million Jews in the entire world yet they seem to be detested by both left and right ideologies (communism and fascism and much inbetween) as well as hard line Muslims (which I class as an ideology). It's some feat, getting that lot to line up on the same side. My theory is that, because the Jews tend to create successful societies, they must be eradicated by the other ideological driven groups so that their own (inferior?) ideologies may prosper.

I think it's comforting hyperbole to suggest Israel have become Nazi like (if that's what you are intimating). The Nazis (and many others) wanted to kill a Jew, any Jew, with every single bullet. Since the start of this latest round of this eternal war around 50,000 Palestinians have been killed. That represents less than 1% of the Palestinian population, so, considering the military advantage, length of this war and bombs dropped, it's nowhere near the level of death Israel could have achieved if killing every Palestinian was the aim.

I also think Israel is in the same position as the USA were with Japan at the end of the second World War. Do they fight the Japanese house to house, building to building and lose an estimated 250,000 to 1 million men? Or, do they use their military might and drop nuclear bombs with upto 500,000 Japanese casualties but no USA casualties?

War is legalised murder, young men killing young men over old mens ideals. I've yet to see a war where 'war crimes' are not commited. Modern weapons mean that civilian areas can , and are often, bombed in order to lessen the support and morale for a war.

We also have a situation where a negotiated surrender to prevent their own citizens suffering any longer seems to have never been considered by the 'losing' side. Unforgiveable if concern for your own people was paramount, as it should be for every government.
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So, not enough dead Palestinians yet...

Apologies for that curt response, but you need to do a lot more reading before coming up with your "theory"... Herzl would have fallen foul of the IHRA examples of antisemitism, not least because he shared that idea (let's call it a trope) that successful Jews caused antisemitism - not for ideological reasons but because of the perceived influence of Jews in society. What he would have thought of AIPAC is hard to imagine - Jews so influential as Diaspora Jews that they affect the policy of their own country in support of the Zionist cause, of creating a Jewish homeland that most of AIPAC's donors wouldn't want to move to.

And maybe Herzl was a bit surprised to discover that Palestine wasn't "a land without people" (not his phrase) that could be colonised without resistance. Or maybe he shared the theory that a successful Jewish society was beneficial to the Arab population: "You see another difficulty in the existence of a non-Jewish population in Palestine. But who would want to expel them? Their well-being and individual prosperity will increase as we bring in our own."
 
Vic said:
So, not enough dead Palestinians yet...
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Yes there is enough dead Palestinians and enough dead Israelis. I'm 100% in favour of a peaceful compromise where both peoples can live full and fruitful lives without fear of death. How about you?

Vic said:
Apologies for that curt response, but you need to do a lot more reading before coming up with your "theory"... Herzl would have fallen foul of the IHRA examples of antisemitism, not least because he shared that idea (let's call it a trope) that successful Jews caused antisemitism - not for ideological reasons but because of the perceived influence of Jews in society. What he would have thought of AIPAC is hard to imagine - Jews so influential as Diaspora Jews that they affect the policy of their own country in support of the Zionist cause, of creating a Jewish homeland that most of AIPAC's donors wouldn't want to move to.
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I mentioned that there are only 15.8 million Jews in the world to expose the trope of Jewish influence. There are around 8 million Jews in Israel which leaves 7.8 million in the rest of the world. Those 7.8 million apparently control every TV station, every newspaper, have every politician in their back pockets and are the power behind every throne and government known to man. Unlikely.

Vic said:
And maybe Herzl was a bit surprised to discover that Palestine wasn't "a land without people" (not his phrase) that could be colonised without resistance. Or maybe he shared the theory that a successful Jewish society was beneficial to the Arab population: "You see another difficulty in the existence of a non-Jewish population in Palestine. But who would want to expel them? Their well-being and individual prosperity will increase as we bring in our own."
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This seems to be the core issue doesn't it. The Palestinians 100% see themselves as the victim of theft whilst the Israelis 100% see themselves as reclaiming their own homeland. For me, I'm 100% behind the UK diplomatic efforts of trying to establish a compromise. I think we were right in 1947 in formalising borders and I think by and large we are right now in favouring a two state solution. I 'support' Israel as the lesser of two evils but accept they are far from perfect. I will not support any group of people whose aim is the total eradication of another group of people.
 
Palerider said:
Yes there is enough dead Palestinians and enough dead Israelis. I'm 100% in favour of a peaceful compromise where both peoples can live full and fruitful lives without fear of death. How about you?


I mentioned that there are only 15.8 million Jews in the world to expose the trope of Jewish influence. There are around 8 million Jews in Israel which leaves 7.8 million in the rest of the world. Those 7.8 million apparently control every TV station, every newspaper, have every politician in their back pockets and are the power behind every throne and government known to man. Unlikely.


This seems to be the core issue doesn't it. The Palestinians 100% see themselves as the victim of theft whilst the Israelis 100% see themselves as reclaiming their own homeland. For me, I'm 100% behind the UK diplomatic efforts of trying to establish a compromise. I think we were right in 1947 in formalising borders and I think by and large we are right now in favouring a two state solution. I 'support' Israel as the lesser of two evils but accept they are far from perfect. I will not support any group of people whose aim is the total eradication of another group of people.
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Your final two sentences are complete contradiction.
 
Palerider said:
Yes there is enough dead Palestinians and enough dead Israelis. I'm 100% in favour of a peaceful compromise where both peoples can live full and fruitful lives without fear of death. How about you?


I mentioned that there are only 15.8 million Jews in the world to expose the trope of Jewish influence. There are around 8 million Jews in Israel which leaves 7.8 million in the rest of the world. Those 7.8 million apparently control every TV station, every newspaper, have every politician in their back pockets and are the power behind every throne and government known to man. Unlikely.


This seems to be the core issue doesn't it. The Palestinians 100% see themselves as the victim of theft whilst the Israelis 100% see themselves as reclaiming their own homeland. For me, I'm 100% behind the UK diplomatic efforts of trying to establish a compromise. I think we were right in 1947 in formalising borders and I think by and large we are right now in favouring a two state solution. I 'support' Israel as the lesser of two evils but accept they are far from perfect. I will not support any group of people whose aim is the total eradication of another group of people.
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So what are the borders of the Israeli homeland?
 
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