Milner [Merged]

[lee-mcfc]

I think he will be a quality signing for us..

lets say if Mourinho would have been manager and wanted him, would people still question it..

Yes. Just because we'd have a manager of superior reputation in the game, it wouldn't alter my opinion that James Milner is an average player who had a good season just like Stephen Ireland did in the season of 08/09. Every player is prone to it, remember Jaun Pablo Angel scoring 23 goals for Aston Villa one season and Arsenal were after him? He done it for one season and now he's in America.

I'm sorry but I just don't rate him. If he comes then I'll support him, but I just don't see what anyone sees in him. If he was moving to Spurs / Liverpool then we wouldn't be arsed either way and we wouldn't be throwing our toys out of the pram something stupid would we?

He's a "take him or leave him" player and nothing to get excited about.

^ everything you just said is what i was about to say.

 

[leewill31]

I think he will be a quality signing for us..

lets say if Mourinho would have been manager and wanted him, would people still question it..

Yes. Just because we'd have a manager of superior reputation in the game, it wouldn't alter my opinion that James Milner is an average player who had a good season just like Stephen Ireland did in the season of 08/09. Every player is prone to it, remember Jaun Pablo Angel scoring 23 goals for Aston Villa one season and Arsenal were after him? He done it for one season and now he's in America.

I'm sorry but I just don't rate him. If he comes then I'll support him, but I just don't see what anyone sees in him. If he was moving to Spurs / Liverpool then we wouldn't be arsed either way and we wouldn't be throwing our toys out of the pram something stupid would we?

He's a "take him or leave him" player and nothing to get excited about.

without you knowing it you have hit the nail on the head with that last sentence,we aint buying him to excite us,we have other players to do that.

 

[macmanson]

If he'd been playing in the Prem for a few years & getting better each season, become an England regular, voted young player of the year & City wanted to sign him, he would cost that much. Ferdinand was £30m all those years ago. It's the premuim for young English Premier League players. The new rules will make it worse if they remain.

The way you make it sound is that Milner has been stedily getting better each year. TBH i think he was average untill he played CM this year for Villa, let's face it his price has ballooned because of one good season, last summer his value was probably 16 million, A.J has had half a brilliant season so i don't see the problem.

We already know that English players are overvalued. If we look at Milner's Senior club stats:

Senior career*
Years Team Apps† (Gls)†
2002–2004 Leeds United 48 (5)
2003 → Swindon Town (loan) 6 (2)
2004–2008 Newcastle United 94 (6)
2005–2006 → Aston Villa (loan) 27 (1)
2008– Aston Villa 72 (10)

He has scored a total of 24 goals in 247 senior appearances or just under 1 goal in every 10 appearances.

International stats:

National team‡
2001–2002 England U16 6 (5)
2002–2003 England U17 11 (8)
2003 England U19 1 (0)
2003–2004 England U20 6 (4)
2004–2009 England U21 46 (9)
2009– England 11 (0)

Which makes 26 goals in 81 appearances (none at the senior level).

In contrast, Ireland has the following club stats:

Senior career*
Years Team Apps† (Gls)†
2005– Manchester City 138 (16)

That's 16 goals in 138 appearances are slightly over 1 goal for every 9 appearances.

International stats:

National team‡
2005 Republic of Ireland U21 1 (0)
2006–2007 Republic of Ireland 6 (4)

That's 4 goals in 7 games for his national teams.

The reality of the situation is that outside of last year, Milner hasn't done anything more significant than Ireland has. He did fuck all in his previous stints to justify a transfer fee in the same region as David Villa, while our fans rate Stevie at £5 million or less in some cases. Doesn't make sense at all. Even Mancini has stated that he thinks Milner is a £10m player.

"There are two or three strikers that we could go for, but it is the same situation as it is with James Milner. First there is the price and then it depends if the players want to change team. Until today, Liverpool haven't bought many players."

Aston Villa midfielder James Milner continues to interest Mancini but he insists the club will not be held to ransom.

"When Manchester City enquire about a £10million player, the club asks for £20million. That is not good for us," said Mancini.

"James is still a player who interests us but only at the right price."

http://msn.foxsports.com/foxsoccer/premierleague/story/City-chief-admits-interest-in-Torres

Cannot see how people on here say anything up to £30m is reasonable. I'd rather us go for West Brom's Graham Dorrans who the same height and build, is a year younger, scored as many goals and would be loads cheaper. Just because we have money is no reason to spend it stupidly on players. People complain about the £18m payed for RSC but he was already more established than Milner when we bought him for half the price. We should've walked away from this deal when the initial £20m was turned down. We were already getting hosed at that amount.

 

[kippax23]

We all got excited about a dick from brazil who told us to f off I know which I would rather have

 

[Marvin]

Milner has developed and improved as a player. The most relevant season is his last season

You can't use his lifetime stats to judge the player as he is now. If you could then Michael Owen would be a favourite for the golden boot

Milner is a driving midfielder with a great cross - which saw him to 3rd in the assists table. You need players like Milner. It's not clever to compare and contrast to different types of midfielder like Ozil or Ireland

 

[C_T_I_D]

We all got excited about a dick from brazil who told us to f off I know which I would rather have

Love him or hate him, he started the new era which helped us to where we are today.

 

[samharris]

Yes. Just because we'd have a manager of superior reputation in the game, it wouldn't alter my opinion that James Milner is an average player who had a good season just like Stephen Ireland did in the season of 08/09. Every player is prone to it, remember Jaun Pablo Angel scoring 23 goals for Aston Villa one season and Arsenal were after him? He done it for one season and now he's in America.

I'm sorry but I just don't rate him. If he comes then I'll support him, but I just don't see what anyone sees in him. If he was moving to Spurs / Liverpool then we wouldn't be arsed either way and we wouldn't be throwing our toys out of the pram something stupid would we?

He's a "take him or leave him" player and nothing to get excited about.

without you knowing it you have hit the nail on the head with that last sentence,we aint buying him to excite us,we have other players to do that.

we have the flair players now but we also need the grafters..

 

[whynot?]

The way you make it sound is that Milner has been stedily getting better each year. TBH i think he was average untill he played CM this year for Villa, let's face it his price has ballooned because of one good season, last summer his value was probably 16 million, A.J has had half a brilliant season so i don't see the problem.

We already know that English players are overvalued. If we look at Milner's Senior club stats:

Senior career*
Years Team Apps† (Gls)†
2002–2004 Leeds United 48 (5)
2003 → Swindon Town (loan) 6 (2)
2004–2008 Newcastle United 94 (6)
2005–2006 → Aston Villa (loan) 27 (1)
2008– Aston Villa 72 (10)

He has scored a total of 24 goals in 247 senior appearances or just under 1 goal in every 10 appearances.

International stats:

National team‡
2001–2002 England U16 6 (5)
2002–2003 England U17 11 (8)
2003 England U19 1 (0)
2003–2004 England U20 6 (4)
2004–2009 England U21 46 (9)
2009– England 11 (0)

Which makes 26 goals in 81 appearances (none at the senior level).

In contrast, Ireland has the following club stats:

Senior career*
Years Team Apps† (Gls)†
2005– Manchester City 138 (16)

That's 16 goals in 138 appearances are slightly over 1 goal for every 9 appearances.

International stats:

National team‡
2005 Republic of Ireland U21 1 (0)
2006–2007 Republic of Ireland 6 (4)

That's 4 goals in 7 games for his national teams.

thats hard to argue with really.
though it should also include completed passes etc. to open it up a bit.<br /><br />-- Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:00 pm --<br /><br />

The way you make it sound is that Milner has been stedily getting better each year. TBH i think he was average untill he played CM this year for Villa, let's face it his price has ballooned because of one good season, last summer his value was probably 16 million, A.J has had half a brilliant season so i don't see the problem.

We already know that English players are overvalued. If we look at Milner's Senior club stats:

Senior career*
Years Team Apps† (Gls)†
2002–2004 Leeds United 48 (5)
2003 → Swindon Town (loan) 6 (2)
2004–2008 Newcastle United 94 (6)
2005–2006 → Aston Villa (loan) 27 (1)
2008– Aston Villa 72 (10)

He has scored a total of 24 goals in 247 senior appearances or just under 1 goal in every 10 appearances.

International stats:

National team‡
2001–2002 England U16 6 (5)
2002–2003 England U17 11 (8)
2003 England U19 1 (0)
2003–2004 England U20 6 (4)
2004–2009 England U21 46 (9)
2009– England 11 (0)

Which makes 26 goals in 81 appearances (none at the senior level).

In contrast, Ireland has the following club stats:

Senior career*
Years Team Apps† (Gls)†
2005– Manchester City 138 (16)

That's 16 goals in 138 appearances are slightly over 1 goal for every 9 appearances.

International stats:

National team‡
2005 Republic of Ireland U21 1 (0)
2006–2007 Republic of Ireland 6 (4)

That's 4 goals in 7 games for his national teams.

thats hard to argue with really.
though it should also include completed passes etc. to open it up a bit.

 

[macmanson]

Milner has developed and improved as a player. The most relevant season is his last season

You can't use his lifetime stats to judge the player as he is now. If you could then Michael Owen would be a favourite for the golden boot

Milner is a driving midfielder with a great cross - which saw him to 3rd in the assists table. You need players like Milner. It's not clever to compare and contrast to different types of midfielder like Ozil or Ireland

I would make the same argument of Ireland as well though. He has developed and improved as a player with his best season in the 2008/2009 season with 9G/9A which was an improvement on the 4G/3A he had in the 2007/2008 season. He started the 2009/2010 season with 2G and 2A rather quickly but then fell off form after the dizzy spell and never really got a good run in the team after that.

Again, you haven't answered the question of why we "need" someone like Milner. He's not a different player than Ireland to be honest. Milner is a 5'7", 153 pound centre midfielder. Ireland is 5'9", 150 pound centre midfielder. They are both 24. They have a relatively close goal per game ratio. I can't think of a more apples to apples comparison than the 2 of them. So rather than say something generic with no proof like "Milner is a different player than them" why don't you come up with a credible argument that makes Milner worth up to 3 times as much as Stevie.

 

[persvenality cult]

I still like him. sure, he's not 12m more talented than steven ireland. 25m is pretty crazy but unlike jolean last year, I can see that as a whole package, there probably isn't another player available for less, who ticks all the boxes. so there is your 'value'.

stamina and good crossing is a pretty rare, (and very useful) combination. plus he can do it off either foot. his touch is good, he has a few tricks and just enough pace. he has no real weakness whatsoever, save not being as fast as bellamy or as tricky as robinho. his workrate, mentality and match craft are superb, despite only being 24 he's got 7 seasons under his belt, form has had ups and downs but the downs are hardly worth talking about, he's been a stand out player in every team he's played for, never let anyone down, never had a dreadful spell. little by little he's asserted himself on the english game.

he's still more talented with the ball at his feet than many on here appear to think. he is competent in every aspect of midfield play, he's learned to apply himself consistently. he'll do whatever job you ask of him, to the upmost, week after week. he's young, and is still developing. crucially, he counts towards the magic eight, and can do any number of jobs very well indeed.

he helps squeeze as much usefullness out of that 25 as possible. adaptable english players of the required standard like him, are like hen's teeth.

he'll come in and play on the right of the diamond. or the left. we have good defensive minded midfielders but not enough to sit on either side of the midfield. or he'll fill in at the tip. it doesn't matter, he has the right balance of skills for any of those roles. that's why we're still after him. yes, the money is crazy, but whilst Ireland doesn't like playing on the left or right of a narrow midfield, whilst the likes of ozil are only really suited to playing in the hole, this guy can and will do 'the dirty work'.

 

[Monkfish]

I slagged these stats off yesterday but
Castrol rankings
1192 Ireland (594 previous year)
155 Milner (up from 215 previous year)

I cant find comparative stats for last year as they only have the top 50 in chances made, goals scored, tackles won, assists etc ...and only 1 of the 2 players mentioned appears in the top 50 lists

Last post on this from me, if you think Milner and Ireland are at all similar you either
a) know nothing about the game
b) are someone who hasnt seen Milner play but likes spouting off
c) both

for what its worth I'm not anti Ireland, I would take a punt on him coming good again but not so sure that will happen at City

 

[Marvin]

Milner has developed and improved as a player. The most relevant season is his last season

You can't use his lifetime stats to judge the player as he is now. If you could then Michael Owen would be a favourite for the golden boot

Milner is a driving midfielder with a great cross - which saw him to 3rd in the assists table. You need players like Milner. It's not clever to compare and contrast to different types of midfielder like Ozil or Ireland

I would make the same argument of Ireland as well though. He has developed and improved as a player with his best season in the 2008/2009 season with 9G/9A which was an improvement on the 4G/3A he had in the 2007/2008 season. He started the 2009/2010 season with 2G and 2A rather quickly but then fell off form after the dizzy spell and never really got a good run in the team after that.

Again, you haven't answered the question of why we "need" someone like Milner. He's not a different player than Ireland to be honest. Milner is a 5'7", 153 pound centre midfielder. Ireland is 5'9", 150 pound centre midfielder. They are both 24. They have a relatively close goal per game ratio. I can't think of a more apples to apples comparison than the 2 of them. So rather than say something generic with no proof like "Milner is a different player than them" why don't you come up with a credible argument that makes Milner worth up to 3 times as much as Stevie.

WTF have their weights got to do with it, or their goal ratios?

They are different types of midfielder. Milner can run through tackles, can go wide and is able to drive the game forward, where Ireland is looking to beat players with one twos, and is a a very creative forward passer of the ball. He's always looking to play the forward in with a clever through ball. Milner is a more all round midfielder. And he has the ability to go wide and whip a cross in. You rarely see Ireland do that

If you want to look at the England team I'd compare Milner to gerrard and Ireland to Cole

The value is largely determined by the fact that Villa are unwilling sellers

 

[macmanson]

I still like him. sure, he's not 12m more talented than steven ireland. 25m is pretty crazy but unlike jolean last year, I can see that as a whole package, there probably isn't another player available for less, who ticks all the boxes. so there is your 'value'.

stamina and good crossing is a pretty rare, (and very useful) combination. plus he can do it off either foot. his touch is good, he has a few tricks and just enough pace. he has no real weakness whatsoever, save not being as fast as bellamy or as tricky as robinho. his workrate, mentality and match craft are superb, despite only being 24 he's got 7 seasons under his belt, form has had ups and downs but the downs are hardly worth talking about, he's been a stand out player in every team he's played for, never let anyone down, never had a dreadful spell. little by little he's asserted himself on the english game.

he's still more talented with the ball at his feet than many on here appear to think. he is competent in every aspect of midfield play, he's learned to apply himself consistently. he'll do whatever job you ask of him, to the upmost, week after week. he's young, and is still developing. crucially, he counts towards the magic eight, and can do any number of jobs very well indeed.

he helps squeeze as much usefullness out of that 25 as possible. adaptable english players of the required standard like him, are like hen's teeth.

he'll come in and play on the right of the diamond. or the left. we have good defensive minded midfielders but not enough to sit on either side of the midfield. or he'll fill in at the tip. it doesn't matter, he has the right balance of skills for any of those roles. that's why we're still after him. yes, the money is crazy, but whilst Ireland doesn't like playing on the left or right of a narrow midfield, whilst the likes of ozil are only really suited to playing in the hole, this guy can and will do 'the dirty work'.

Again, those are lots of nice platitudes but hardly any convincing proof of all that. During last year, he was mainly played as a CM on the right but a few times on the left and almost never as a winger. Also the goals/assists he did collect weren't exactly against top notch teams either.

1G - Birmingham
1G @ Hull
1A - Everton
1G @ Wigan
3A - Burnley
1G, 1A @ Sunderland
1G, 1A - Hull
1A @ Burnley
1G, 2A - Bolton
1A @ Blackburn
1G, 1A - Portsmouth
1A - Fulham

So for me, he does not improve the team from the potential top 4 team we were last year. He doesn't get it done against the top teams in the league, so therefore is not an improvement on what we already have.

We had 4 midfielders in the top 20 of assist leaders with Craig Bellamy @ 7 (10A), Adam Johnson @ 13 (9A), SWP @ 17 (7A) & Gareth Barry @ 19 (7A), Carlos Tevez had 7 and even Adebayor had 6A. We've never had a problem with midfielders distributing the ball for goals. It's been winning defensive battles that has been the issue and a 5'7" and 153 pounds I hardly see how he's going to improve the toughness of our midfield.

 

[Ticket For Schalke]

I still like him. sure, he's not 12m more talented than steven ireland. 25m is pretty crazy but unlike jolean last year, I can see that as a whole package, there probably isn't another player available for less, who ticks all the boxes. so there is your 'value'.

stamina and good crossing is a pretty rare, (and very useful) combination. plus he can do it off either foot. his touch is good, he has a few tricks and just enough pace. he has no real weakness whatsoever, save not being as fast as bellamy or as tricky as robinho. his workrate, mentality and match craft are superb, despite only being 24 he's got 7 seasons under his belt, form has had ups and downs but the downs are hardly worth talking about, he's been a stand out player in every team he's played for, never let anyone down, never had a dreadful spell. little by little he's asserted himself on the english game.

he's still more talented with the ball at his feet than many on here appear to think. he is competent in every aspect of midfield play, he's learned to apply himself consistently. he'll do whatever job you ask of him, to the upmost, week after week. he's young, and is still developing. crucially, he counts towards the magic eight, and can do any number of jobs very well indeed.

he helps squeeze as much usefullness out of that 25 as possible. adaptable english players of the required standard like him, are like hen's teeth.

he'll come in and play on the right of the diamond. or the left. we have good defensive minded midfielders but not enough to sit on either side of the midfield. or he'll fill in at the tip. it doesn't matter, he has the right balance of skills for any of those roles. that's why we're still after him. yes, the money is crazy, but whilst Ireland doesn't like playing on the left or right of a narrow midfield, whilst the likes of ozil are only really suited to playing in the hole, this guy can and will do 'the dirty work'.

Again, those are lots of nice platitudes but hardly any convincing proof of all that. During last year, he was mainly played as a CM on the right but a few times on the left and almost never as a winger. Also the goals/assists he did collect weren't exactly against top notch teams either.

1G - Birmingham
1G @ Hull
1A - Everton
1G @ Wigan
3A - Burnley
1G, 1A @ Sunderland
1G, 1A - Hull
1A @ Burnley
1G, 2A - Bolton
1A @ Blackburn
1G, 1A - Portsmouth
1A - Fulham

So for me, he does not improve the team from the potential top 4 team we were last year. He doesn't get it done against the top teams in the league, so therefore is not an improvement on what we already have.

We had 4 midfielders in the top 20 of assist leaders with Craig Bellamy @ 7 (10A), Adam Johnson @ 13 (9A), SWP @ 17 (7A) & Gareth Barry @ 19 (7A), Carlos Tevez had 7 and even Adebayor had 6A. We've never had a problem with midfielders distributing the ball for goals. It's been winning defensive battles that has been the issue and a 5'7" and 153 pounds I hardly see how he's going to improve the toughness of our midfield.

but we had a decent record against the "big" 4.

 

[Marvin]

I still like him. sure, he's not 12m more talented than steven ireland. 25m is pretty crazy but unlike jolean last year, I can see that as a whole package, there probably isn't another player available for less, who ticks all the boxes. so there is your 'value'.

stamina and good crossing is a pretty rare, (and very useful) combination. plus he can do it off either foot. his touch is good, he has a few tricks and just enough pace. he has no real weakness whatsoever, save not being as fast as bellamy or as tricky as robinho. his workrate, mentality and match craft are superb, despite only being 24 he's got 7 seasons under his belt, form has had ups and downs but the downs are hardly worth talking about, he's been a stand out player in every team he's played for, never let anyone down, never had a dreadful spell. little by little he's asserted himself on the english game.

he's still more talented with the ball at his feet than many on here appear to think. he is competent in every aspect of midfield play, he's learned to apply himself consistently. he'll do whatever job you ask of him, to the upmost, week after week. he's young, and is still developing. crucially, he counts towards the magic eight, and can do any number of jobs very well indeed.

he helps squeeze as much usefullness out of that 25 as possible. adaptable english players of the required standard like him, are like hen's teeth.

he'll come in and play on the right of the diamond. or the left. we have good defensive minded midfielders but not enough to sit on either side of the midfield. or he'll fill in at the tip. it doesn't matter, he has the right balance of skills for any of those roles. that's why we're still after him. yes, the money is crazy, but whilst Ireland doesn't like playing on the left or right of a narrow midfield, whilst the likes of ozil are only really suited to playing in the hole, this guy can and will do 'the dirty work'.

Again, those are lots of nice platitudes but hardly any convincing proof of all that. During last year, he was mainly played as a CM on the right but a few times on the left and almost never as a winger. Also the goals/assists he did collect weren't exactly against top notch teams either.

1G - Birmingham
1G @ Hull
1A - Everton
1G @ Wigan
3A - Burnley
1G, 1A @ Sunderland
1G, 1A - Hull
1A @ Burnley
1G, 2A - Bolton
1A @ Blackburn
1G, 1A - Portsmouth
1A - Fulham

So for me, he does not improve the team from the potential top 4 team we were last year. He doesn't get it done against the top teams in the league, so therefore is not an improvement on what we already have.

We had 4 midfielders in the top 20 of assist leaders with Craig Bellamy @ 7 (10A), Adam Johnson @ 13 (9A), SWP @ 17 (7A) & Gareth Barry @ 19 (7A), Carlos Tevez had 7 and even Adebayor had 6A. We've never had a problem with midfielders distributing the ball for goals. It's been winning defensive battles that has been the issue and a 5'7" and 153 pounds I hardly see how he's going to improve the toughness of our midfield.

Despite not playing as a winger, he is still one of the best crossers of the ball
in the Premiership. Villa have the two best in Milner and Young.

Your argument about not producing against the top 4 is ridiculous. It's a team game. And there's a big gap between Villa and the top 4 - they picked a lot of points up against the lower teams away from home with their counter-attacking football

I thought he was one of England's better performers in the World Cup and he put in some great crosses which England failed to capitalise upon. In fact he was probably the only consistently creative player England possessed.

 

[macmanson]

WTF have their weights got to do with it, or their goal ratios?

Because we have already determined that he isn't coming to be a defensive midfielder, so his only worth to us is his attacking prowess, which is shown to be vastly overrated. He's scored most of his goals and assists against lower table teams. How he achieve's the goals and assists is not as relevant to simply achieving them. If I have 2 players who can guarantee me 10 goals each per season, playing different styles, I would be a fool to pay 3 times more for one of them. That's my argument. Milner is a useful squad player to us, not a 30m pound starter that Aston Villa are valuing him at. We can can get equal or better for far less.

 

[richards30]

but to be honest it was our record record against the shitter teams that let us down again!!!!! hull in both games,fulham home,burnley home etc......city have always been the same struggling to go to a team like stoke and win!!

 

[Marvin]

WTF have their weights got to do with it, or their goal ratios?

Because we have already determined that he isn't coming to be a defensive midfielder, so his only worth to us is his attacking prowess, which is shown to be vastly overrated. He's scored most of his goals and assists against lower table teams. How he achieve's the goals and assists is not as relevant to simply achieving them. If I have 2 players who can guarantee me 10 goals each per season, playing different styles, I would be a fool to pay 3 times more for one of them. That's my argument. Milner is a useful squad player to us, not a 30m pound starter that Aston Villa are valuing him at. We can can get equal or better for far less.

We have not determined anything of the kind......you have merely asserted it which is quite a different matter. We wouldn't be buying him for purely his attacking game - but for his all round game.

 

[DontLookBackInAnger]

It doesn't really matter who you score against, the bottom-line is most players will have a better record against the weaker teams. Losing away to Hull is just the same as losing away to the rags, in terms of league points.

 

[malg]

this has turned into a really boring thread.......I'm off to Off Topic.