Morality

BlueHammer85

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 Oct 2010
Messages
36,506
I am the source of my morality.....I want to kill little children

You are the source of your morality.....you want to protect little children

Who is right?

Neither since we are both the source of our morality....

If in your worldview you have explained fully the source or origins of your morality, that we are anatomically in control of our own bodies then right and wrong is simply anatomic/brain matter, blood

Morality is as evident as a God, neither is found in a test tube.

The Vicar
 
But the evidence of peoples morals can be seen and are displayed in their everyday behaviour. The existence of some spiritual being isn't evident. (unless you believe it's responsible for birds, bees, pretty flowers etc )
 
So basically Bluemooners, this is Mark85's vicar brother, using his account, for some reason he seems to be unable to create his own account and thus prevent Markt85 from looking like a Schizophrenic or a maniac.

So, basically, what this guy is talking about, which he has assumed his audience is aware of without naming it (so you can Google it) - a stupid idea in and of itself, is objective morality; the idea that morality isn't subjective but because it is God-given, it is absolute.

However, he seems to have missed out the points where supposedly the laws that are God-given are self-contradictory. So, assuming a God exists, one hell of an assumption, and assuming he has spoken to us on Earth through prophets, another big assumption, we've now got to work out what this self-contradictory twat wants. Apparently, we should not kill, but apparently we can also put people to death for many reasons, including stoning to death our children for being disobedient and for being a homosexual. So, it seems to me that objective morality is about as useful a a chocolate teapot. Can't prove the fucker exists, can't prove he spoke to us, and even if he did it's self-contradictory nonsense and hence is not useful.

Right, now, onto my version of morality. Human beings have power over their own bodies. A fact - unlike the existence of God, his prophets, and a tangible way to extract sense from a sea of self-contradiction. This means we should be judged by our individual actions. Extending on from this is the idea that, because we have freedom over own bodies, we should have freedom to do what we want with our own bodies, as long as we don't interfere with the freedom of other people to do the same. This idea was formulated by John Stuart Mill in the harm principle. Which says we can do what we want as long as we do not harm others. So there you go, you cannot kill, rape, or kidnap, hurt, or steal from someone because you are doing them harm. Meanwhile, you cannot stop homosexuals from having a relationship, taking drugs, engaging the services of a prostitute etc. because it doesn't harm anyone else by doing so. I'm quite happy to take my version of morality. I will say this isn't my only form of morality. My personal morality goes further and actually embraces many ideas purported to be those of Jesus Christ, including love, charity and forgiving people. However, the harm principle should be what the law is based on. It doesn't subscribe to the whims of any person. It cannot enforce my personal morality. It is absolute. If you harm someone, it's a crime. If you don't, it's not, even if it's questionable behaviour. Altruistic behaviour is unenforceable. It only demands no harm, and as I say, it is derivable from the fact that we as individuals control our own actions.
 
Skashion said:
So basically Bluemooners, this is Mark85's vicar brother, using his account, for some reason he seems to be unable to create his own account and thus prevent Markt85 from looking like a Schizophrenic or a maniac.

So, basically, what this guy is talking about, which he has assumed his audience is aware of without naming it (so you can Google it) - a stupid idea in and of itself, is objective morality; the idea that morality isn't subjective but because it is God-given, it is absolute.

However, he seems to have missed out the points where supposedly the laws that are God-given are self-contradictory. So, assuming a God exists, one hell of an assumption, and assuming he has spoken to us on Earth through prophets, another big assumption, we've now got to work out what this self-contradictory twat wants. Apparently, we should not kill, but apparently we can also put people to death for many reasons, including stoning to death our children for being disobedient and for being a homosexual. So, it seems to me that objective morality is about as useful a a chocolate teapot. Can't prove the fucker exists, can't prove he spoke to us, and even if he did it's self-contradictory nonsense and hence is not useful.

Right, now, onto my version of morality. Human beings have power over their own bodies. A fact - unlike the existence of God, his prophets, and a tangible way to extract sense from a sea of self-contradiction. This means we should be judged by our individual actions. Extending on from this is the idea that, because we have freedom over own bodies, we should have freedom to do what we want with our own bodies, as long as we don't interfere with the freedom of other people to do the same. This idea was formulated by John Stuart Mill in the harm principle. Which says we can do what we want as long as we do not harm others. So there you go, you cannot kill, rape, or kidnap, hurt, or steal from someone because you are doing them harm. Meanwhile, you cannot stop homosexuals from having a relationship, taking drugs, engaging the services of a prostitute etc. because it doesn't harm anyone else by doing so. I'm quite happy to take my version of morality. I will say this isn't my only form of morality. My personal morality goes further and actually embraces many ideas purported to be those of Jesus Christ, including love, charity and forgiving people. However, the harm principle should be what the law is based on. It doesn't subscribe to the whims of any person. It cannot enforce my personal morality. It is absolute. If you harm someone, it's a crime. If you don't, it's not, even if it's questionable behaviour. Altruistic behaviour is unenforceable. It only demands no harm, and as I say, it is derivable from the fact that we as individuals control our own actions.


Excellent post.

There is also a Darwinian explanation for altruism and morality which sits very comfortably within the realms of reality and holds its own when put to scientific research.

The very idea that anyone would attribute their goodwill to a God makes me chuckle, as they do themselves and their own intelligence a disservice. It's even funnier when they attribute their good will to God and then say "Oh yes, but I don't believe in stoning homosexuals and other such barbaric things.". If you can discern between something moral and something immoral within the dogma you believe, why on Earth would you still attribute your sense of morality to it?
 
Markt85 said:
I am the source of my morality.....I want to kill little children

You are the source of your morality.....you want to protect little children

Who is right?
Need more information. Are the little children first born Egyptian children?
- 'Cause then it is perfectly fine to slaughter them all, isn't it?
 
blueish swede said:
Markt85 said:
I am the source of my morality.....I want to kill little children

You are the source of your morality.....you want to protect little children

Who is right?
Need more information. Are the little children first born Egyptian children?
- 'Cause then it is perfectly fine to slaughter them all, isn't it?

I'm sure that was the Jews mate.
 
" you cannot kill, rape, or kidnap,hurt, or steal from someone because you are doing them harm "

But should I harm the person that's doing these acts if i have the ability to stop them ? ie a man is about to rape and murder your girlfriend and you have a gun, under the principles of your hero mills .No, Your girlfriend is to be left to die

A) How cruel is he....

B) even if you still hold to the principle of harming others, your action of inactivity has HARMED your girlfriend ...she's dead


Also , the original post has not been answered -


I am the source of my morality.....I want kill little children

You are the source of your morality.....you want to protect little children

Who is right ??

Neither since we are both the source of our morality

You see the conundrum you are in?

If in your worldview you have explained fully the source or origins of your morality, that we are anatomically in control of our own bodies then right and wrong is simply anatomic/brain matter, blood

Morality is as evident as a God, neither is found in a test tube
 
Apparently you don't understand the fact that instigator of harm has committed a crime and hence can be stopped in the process of doing so, and in the aftermath, punished.

However, I would like to know how your objective morality solves this fake conundrum. One of the Ten Commandments says do not kill, now, the rest of the Bible says we can kill for various imagined sins, including homosexuality and disobedient children (what fine morality), but let's ignore that for a second. A man is killing a woman, you kill him to stop him. The person who stops him has killed, therefore breaching one of the Ten Commandments. How has your so-called objective morality helped us? Your rape scenario is utterly bogus too. Your Bible commands any unmarried woman to marry her rapist.

I know I won't get an answer though, because you're in too deep to admit error, to admit misgivings, to admit that it simply doesn't make sense. You've thrown your life away serving a God that you can't prove exists, prophets you can't prove exist or prove they were telling truths, serving a minefield of self-contradictory nonsense which doesn't help us solve any moral issues, even if divine in provenance, because it's such a muddle. As another matter, I thought your God was omniscient, assuming that is the case, why did he not hand down doctrine which was self-consistent, and hence achievable, perhaps even useful?
 
Skashion said:
Apparently you don't understand the fact that instigator of harm has committed a crime and hence can be stopped in the process of doing so, and in the aftermath, punished.

However, I would like to know how your objective morality solves this fake conundrum. One of the Ten Commandments says do not kill, now, the rest of the Bible says we can kill for various imagined sins, including homosexuality and disobedient children (what fine morality), but let's ignore that for a second. A man is killing a woman, you kill him to stop him. The person who stops him has killed, therefore breaching one of the Ten Commandments. How has your so-called objective morality helped us? Your rape scenario is utterly bogus too. Your Bible commands any unmarried woman to marry her rapist.

I know I won't get an answer though, because you're in too deep to admit error, to admit misgivings, to admit that it simply doesn't make sense. You've thrown your life away serving a God that you can't prove exists, prophets you can't prove exist or prove they were telling truths, serving a minefield of self-contradictory nonsense which doesn't help us solve any moral issues, even if divine in provenance, because it's such a muddle. As another matter, I thought your God was omniscient, assuming that is the case, why did he not hand down doctrine which was self-consistent, and hence achievable, perhaps even useful?

Lol, you know I have to edit some of this for fear of offending.
 

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