Mourinho or Mancini

[bernabias home shirt]

Good post skas
But it's not moo's fault it's his players

 

[MSP]

Actually, if they win next two against Sociedad and Osasuna they'll have exactly same number of points from same number of games as we do. Scored 7 more in the league, conceded 2 less.

And yeah, one tiny thing more - they went through the CL group, one we had bad luck to play in too. Had a slightly better point count (11 vs 3)

Way worse, I tell you.

The league in Spain is far inferior in difficulty to the league in England first of all, and I'm not sure if anyone can disagree with that.

And I wasn't talking about Europe...

This guy is absolutely shameless. 100% shameless. I've torn him apart over trying to pretend that a goal or point in La Liga has the same value as it does in England, but he's still trying to pretend like it is.

Ahahaha, he torn me apart, lol, what a modest bloke

That's cool in this lousy rainy day, thank you for that mister, just keep living in your cucko land and continue to torn people apart just like you do in your "Balotelli is world class theory"

 

[Skashion]

Ahahaha, he torn me apart, lol, what a modest bloke

That's cool in this lousy rainy day, thank you for that mister, just keep living in your cucko land and continue to torn people apart just like you do in your "Balotelli is world class theory"

Yes, I did. Page 96 and 97 for anyone who wants to go back and look at it. I threw fact after fact at you and then you tried to run away by saying it doesn't mean Mourinho's a shit manager. Correct, it doesn't, but that wasn't the point was it? The point was you were and still, unbelievably are, trying to pretend that a point in England means the same in Spain. No, it doesn't, because the same number of goals and points won't win you the same amount of trophies anymore. The most points EVER needed to win a title in England is 89 points. That wouldn't have won you the league in Spain in the past three years. You wouldn't even have been runner-up, never mind winner. England has never had two teams finish with more than 90 points (points adjusted since 1888). It's happened in Spain in the past three years. Our record title winner is Chelsea with 95 points. In Spain it's 100. Our runners-up record total is 89 points, in Spain it's 96 points (more than our record title winner). There you go, condensed it all nicely for you.

Find me once, where I've ever said Balotelli is world class. Not that he has the potential to be. Find me where I've said Balotelli is world class. I'll leave this forum today. Come on MSP, you'll be a hero to some if you can get rid of me.

 

[MSP]

Yes, I did. Page 96 and 97 for anyone who wants to go back and look at it. I threw fact after fact at you and then you tried to run away by saying it doesn't mean Mourinho's a shit manager.

And here are my running away posts, Mister Torning apart:

Isolated incident?

And current Real Madrid points tale is usual "incident"?

We are talking about current situation, not the one 5 years ago or I could go few more back and find Barcelona/Real picking even less points than their English counterparts.

You're picking arguments not for arguments sake but how they fit you, not much use of discussion in such case ;)

Man won 100 points and left Barcelona 8 points behind last season. You know, same barcelona everyone is wanking about here on daily basis.

No, ignorance is to stick it up to Mourinho because he is 16 points behind club who lost 2 points in 17 games.

Madrid are certainly not in great position and have unusually bad season so far and Mourinho is dead man walking there but it's not being third or not leading the race what people are using to prove some extravagant point that Mourinho is not one of the greatest ever manager :) but it's 16 points they use to prove something.

And I counter-attack it with the fact they're 16 points behind team who won all games except one played against Mourinho's side.

Not that my counter-attacking would change anything in their opinion but I like to have my wise thought on paper for future generations :)

I was obviously shit-scared of your argumentation.

Real Madrid and Barcelona are obviously better teams than any in Spain and have to dominate in that league. They would dominate in Premier League in same manner.

Madrid are obviously having an awful season as the league table shows.

The only reason why I am I in discussion like this one is that people use 16 points stuff to prove something about Mourinho while forgetting to add the fact that Barcelona lost 2 points in 19 matches and because arrogant English fans think that any league beside Premier League is shit while English champions pick 3 points in CL group and English European champions can't pass the group with Ukrainian one.

So again for those with slow thinking - Madrid are certainly having a bad season, that bad season will certainly cost Mourinho a job but the only reason why they are 16 points behind and not 8-9 or so is that Barcelona is having abnormally good season. So if you want to stick something in Mourinho do it for Real not being as good as they should not using 16 points as that make you pretty dumb.

 

[Skashion]

No, ignorance is to stick it up to Mourinho because he is 16 points behind club who lost 2 points in 17 games.

Madrid are certainly not in great position and have unusually bad season so far and Mourinho is dead man walking there but it's not being third or not leading the race what people are using to prove some extravagant point that Mourinho is not one of the greatest ever manager :) but it's 16 points they use to prove something.

And I counter-attack it with the fact they're 16 points behind team who won all games except one played against Mourinho's side.

Not that my counter-attacking would change anything in their opinion but I like to have my wise thought on paper for future generations :)

I was obviously shit-scared of your argumentation.

As I said, you started trying to pretend the argument about whether it meant Mourinho was a bad manager. Thanks for quoting yourself to prove my point for me. Now, let's stick to the point. Why is it just as hard to win points in Spain as it is England? What facts have you got to support that? Or, can you explain why can Mourinho expected to be patted on the back for accumulating points that might win trophies in England that won't win trophies in Spain?

 

[MSP]

I have to go now, it's Jummah time, I'll answer later.

 

[Skashion]

Real Madrid and Barcelona are obviously better teams than any in Spain and have to dominate in that league. They would dominate in Premier League in same manner.

Madrid are obviously having an awful season as the league table shows.

The only reason why I am I in discussion like this one is that people use 16 points stuff to prove something about Mourinho while forgetting to add the fact that Barcelona lost 2 points in 19 matches and because arrogant English fans think that any league beside Premier League is shit while English champions pick 3 points in CL group and English European champions can't pass the group with Ukrainian one.

So again for those with slow thinking - Madrid are certainly having a bad season, that bad season will certainly cost Mourinho a job but the only reason why they are 16 points behind and not 8-9 or so is that Barcelona is having abnormally good season. So if you want to stick something in Mourinho do it for Real not being as good as they should not using 16 points as that make you pretty dumb.

They wouldn't dominate our league in the same way because they wouldn't get to negotiate their own TV deal, meaning they get ten times as much money as the lowest team (1000% difference versus 50% difference here).

Calm down, Sherlock.

In the past two seasons they were 10 and 11 points better off that they are now, so they'd be 5 or 6 points behind, not 16. So yes, if Mancini deserves the criticism he's getting, so does Mourinho.<br /><br />-- Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:28 am --<br /><br />

I have to go now, it's Jummah time, I'll answer later.

Looking forward to it. *kisses*

 

[MSP]

Here I am..

Of course I think it's easier to get points in La Liga, everyone does. However, me and few others :) don't think it's as much easier as lot of mainly UK based but other too "Premier League only" fans do.

Premier League edges it in level of competition in first third of the league. There's bigger chance some of Manchester teams or Chelsea will lose points gainst someone siting on 7th place than it's a case with La Liga.

But even if there's more chance it's still more of psychological stuff than it's really a case of high competition. For ex. Rags vs Arsenal or Rags vs Spurs are always considered as games where anything could happen and in front of those games City fans always hope Rags would lose some points. But the fact is that Arsenal have one win last few years and SPurs win earlier this season was first one after zillion of years. And we are talking about teams who are always qualifying for Cl or at least heavily competing for those spots.

Out of that I don't think there's big difference and el Clasico teams are as expected to win games against teams out of 1st third as Manchester ones are against PL ones. Watching all kind of European football is part of a job that pays my bills and I haven't seen anything that makes West Ham, Fulham, Sunderland, Newcastle, Norwich etc better than their counterparts in Spain except more fancy names and better media hype. Football wise I'd always pick La Liga game of such teams but I'm more interested in PL and hate atmosphere on stadiums of smaller La Liga teams so PL game would be still be my first choice in general.

So, if I have to be precise I'll say that level of competition in both league is such that Spanish top teams should get 5-7 points more than English top ones. That's 5-6% of difference and as such in no way makes La Liga shit or extremely less competitive than Premier League and that's exactly what I'm fighting for here as people tried to make La Liga to look like Bosnian one and big PL while shitting over it.

The only thing that makes is such is usual PL media propaganda and PL fans who're smoking that propaganda and believe it's fact. If you want a league that is much more competitive than you look at Ligue 1 or Bundesliga though I expect PSG to walk over it soon and Bayern are too strong in Bundesliga at this moment.

Suma sumarum - Real Madrid is not more than 3 points short than City if we look at points count and level of competition. Hardly far worse and hardly something that some City fans should use to laugh on them/mourinho though that is quite enough to consider Madrid campaign this season very unsuccessful.

PS. TV deal is not something you should mention really as it doesn't really going for your case. PL have amazing and fair TV deals yet is not close to be proportionally more competitive than La Liga based on those deals. Same TV deals in Spain and they would be much more competitive than PL currently is as their smallest teams produce much more quality players what helps them to cancel at least part of difference El Clasico teams gain with their money.

 

[Skashion]

Here I am..

Of course I think it's easier to get points in La Liga, everyone does. However, me and few others :) don't think it's as much easier as lot of mainly UK based but other too "Premier League only" fans do.

Premier League edges it in level of competition in first third of the league. There's bigger chance some of Manchester teams or Chelsea will lose points gainst someone siting on 7th place than it's a case with La Liga.

But even if there's more chance it's still more of psychological stuff than it's really a case of high competition. For ex. Rags vs Arsenal or Rags vs Spurs are always considered as games where anything could happen and in front of those games City fans always hope Rags would lose some points. But the fact is that Arsenal have one win last few years and SPurs win earlier this season was first one after zillion of years. And we are talking about teams who are always qualifying for Cl or at least heavily competing for those spots.

Out of that I don't think there's big difference and el Clasico teams are as expected to win games against teams out of 1st third as Manchester ones are against PL ones. Watching all kind of European football is part of a job that pays my bills and I haven't seen anything that makes West Ham, Fulham, Sunderland, Newcastle, Norwich etc better than their counterparts in Spain except more fancy names and better media hype. Football wise I'd always pick La Liga game of such teams but I'm more interested in PL and hate atmosphere on stadiums of smaller La Liga teams so PL game would be still be my first choice in general.

So, if I have to be precise I'll say that level of competition in both league is such that Spanish top teams should get 5-7 points more than English top ones. That's 5-6% of difference and as such in no way makes La Liga shit or extremely less competitive than Premier League and that's exactly what I'm fighting for here as people tried to make La Liga to look like Bosnian one and big PL while shitting over it.

The only thing that makes is such is usual PL media propaganda and PL fans who're smoking that propaganda and believe it's fact. If you want a league that is much more competitive than you look at Ligue 1 or Bundesliga though I expect PSG to walk over it soon and Bayern are too strong in Bundesliga at this moment.

Suma sumarum - Real Madrid is not more than 3 points short than City if we look at points count and level of competition. Hardly far worse and hardly something that some City fans should use to laugh on them/mourinho though that is quite enough to consider Madrid campaign this season very unsuccessful.

PS. TV deal is not something you should mention really as it doesn't really going for your case. PL have amazing and fair TV deals yet is not close to be proportionally more competitive than La Liga based on those deals. Same TV deals in Spain and they would be much more competitive than PL currently is.

As-salamu alaykum.

Indeed, and the average over the past few seasons has been that La Liga champions ended up with 13 points more than the Premier League champions and the Premier League runners-up had 11 points less than La Liga runners-up.

Real Madrid are 10 and 11 points short of where they were the year before and the year before that, and 8 points short of where they were at this point in the season in the season just before Mourinho arrived. So criticism can be legitimately levelled at Mourinho. If people are saying it's ridiculous to sack Mancini and employ Mourinho who has been average by Madrid standards, I think they have a point. Not that I think he's coming anyway. I think he's going to the rags and then he'll piss off, maybe to PSG, maybe Germany to prove he can win the league there, maybe Portugal's national team. He can't seem to stick in one place too long.

La Liga probably would be more competitive than the Premier League if the TV money was shared out fairly equally, but they don't have our TV deals, so they aren't more competitive but instead less competitive, which is exactly my point...

 

[MSP]

Wa alaykumus Salam wa rahmatullah :)

Mourinho can and should be criticized for his current campaign, nobody denied that, it's awful for Madrid standards.

However, I don't think that has anything with employing him at City if time for that comes. I have no doubt he's twice a manager Mancini is, his career shows it (I actually think he is best manager on the World, specially since he is still young) and though I'm too young to compare him with some earlier ones he might be now or certainly become in the future the best manager ever). He is ruthless bastard in same time, something that every great manager is made from. Even Mancini is kind of those but he is just inferior in basic football stuff.

In same time, that Mourinho's ruthlessness is being over-exploited and as much as he is bastard who doesn't give a damn about anyone he is a victim of Barca loving media just as City are (or Mancini was last year) victims of rag loving ones. Imagine if Kompany or Hart went to private visit of their United mates and visited United museum at Old Trafford. Well, that's exactly what Madrid captain and legend Casillas did yesterday. Yet it's Mourinho's fault by default that he doesn't want to tolerate Casillas thinking he is bigger than he should think he is.

Employing managers that were sacked by someone else is in no way anything strange in football - it's integral part of it. Mancini was sacked by Inter yet City employed him too. It's a part of managerial job that at some time you hit the wall at club you're currently working for from many different reasons and it's best for both you and the club to move on. It's exactly what is happening to Mourinho right now and it's exactly what it looks like it's going to happen for Mancini pretty soon.

We would be fools to miss the one who proved he is the best (or at least best available, you can't take success part of that old moron at Swamp) out there while being too emotional about Mancini who is not really showing he is able to make much needed step ahead. He is good manager but not world class and not in Mourinho's league.

PS, you can't use points count from earlier seasons as any kind of bullet proof. It's not simple as that. Things are never same in two seasons. Just as I thought it was too naive to count points from same fixtures this and last year when first signs of City crisis appeared this year or to see that famous "City only undefeated team" thread while we had a draw after draw in the league like in famous Hughes time while beinghumiliated by Ajax team who was built for same money Tevez or Yaya earn each year at City, I find your views too naive and simple too.

Real Madrid and Barcelona were on top of their rivalry in last two years and they were over performing, specially Madrid as we can see Barcelona is running riots this year too and as soon as they managed to beat Barcelona last year Madrid as a team lost that power that pushed them to the top last season. I think pretty much same stuff is happening to City right now and I can partly understand it as I feel lot less pressure for City to win things this season than I had last one. Players in theory shouldn't be like that but they usually are and that's where rednose is top as he is able to keep that tense and hunger for his lot for longer periods than other managers are able to do. Even Mourinho who's pretty good in that department too.