Newcastle (H) Post Match Thread

[Shaelumstash]

We did struggle against parked buses last season, but we managed to get some very, very late goals, mostly through Sterling - Everton, Bournemouth, Southampton (h), Southampton (a), Huddersfield. That's 9 points picked up through late winners. We also had the games we did drop points in - Huddersfield, Palace, Burnley.

I think someone like Pep isn't going to say "We got late goals against those teams last year, we'll get them this year". He's likely to try and make changes so that we don't need late goals to get a win or draw, and think to himself that on another day we could have dropped 15 points from those games, not 6.

He's putting time in early doors to make the team more flexible, more capable of changing mid-game which will pay dividends in the christmas grind or March/April/May knock out time. We've got 433 in our back pocket, we know we're great at that, but sometimes it's predictable and we'll need other options, and we'll need to switch mid-game so the players have to get comfortable with it.

Well changing the shape every game hasn’t work out too well so far.

We were poor against Wolves, particularly when conceding possession, we were so easy to get at on the counter, it was untrue.

And against Newcastle, with a 2 man midfield of Fernandinho, who looks way off the pace, and Silva, it was so easy for Newcastle to just walk right through the middle of us. It was like watching a Pellegrini team.

When we changed back to 433 against Newcastle after Bernado came on, we looked so much more comfortable. We controlled possession, controlled their counter attacks, everyone knew their job and what they were doing, and we actually stretched them a bit more and created better chances.

As much as we might have struggled in the odd game last season, every team struggles in some games. We still won more games and got more points than any team in the history of English football, so it didn’t work out too badly.

If he wants to experiment with 3 at the back or 2 in midfield, for me, the time to do that is half time if we’re in we’re in trouble, or 60 minutes if we’re struggling to break teams down.

Doing it from the start isn’t working. We can’t get in to a rhythm, a pattern of playing where it works like clockwork like it did last season. Let’s get back to what made us the best team in history and if that doesn’t work, then try something different. It’s the ultimate case of if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

 

[domalino]

Well changing the shape every game hasn’t work out too well so far.

We were poor against Wolves, particularly when conceding possession, we were so easy to get at on the counter, it was untrue.

And against Newcastle, with a 2 man midfield of Fernandinho, who looks way off the pace, and Silva, it was so easy for Newcastle to just walk right through the middle of us. It was like watching a Pellegrini team.

When we changed back to 433 against Newcastle after Bernado came on, we looked so much more comfortable. We controlled possession, controlled their counter attacks, everyone knew their job and what they were doing, and we actually stretched them a bit more and created better chances.

As much as we might have struggled in the odd game last season, every team struggles in some games. We still won more games and got more points than any team in the history of English football, so it didn’t work out too badly.

If he wants to experiment with 3 at the back or 2 in midfield, for me, the time to do that is half time if we’re in we’re in trouble, or 60 minutes if we’re struggling to break teams down.

Doing it from the start isn’t working. We can’t get in to a rhythm, a pattern of playing where it works like clockwork like it did last season. Let’s get back to what made us the best team in history and if that doesn’t work, then try something different. It’s the ultimate case of if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

If it's not broke don't fix it is how you become Mourinho, or Van Gaal.

Standing still in football is going backwards. You have to evolve constantly to find new solutions and to stop people working out how to bear you.

1 draw against a good side away from home and you've decided that Guardiola would be better having the side stagnating rather than trying to continually improve. Unbelievable.

 

[Jesus2018]

If it's not broke don't fix it is how you become Mourinho, or Van Gaal.

Standing still in football is going backwards. You have to evolve constantly to find new solutions and to stop people working out how to bear you.

1 draw against a good side away from home and you've decided that Guardiola would be better having the side stagnating rather than trying to continually improve. Unbelievable.

Answered the questions I've been asking myself after the last few games. Some very good discussion in this thread!

 

[Shaelumstash]

If it's not broke don't fix it is how you become Mourinho, or Van Gaal.

Standing still in football is going backwards. You have to evolve constantly to find new solutions and to stop people working out how to bear you.

1 draw against a good side away from home and you've decided that Guardiola would be better having the side stagnating rather than trying to continually improve. Unbelievable.

No. It was alarming how vulnerable we were on the counter against Wolves. Guardiola and several of the players have come out and said exactly the same thing. That’s why Mendy was a lot more reserved against Newcastle.

A 2 man midfield of a 33 year old Fernandinho and a 32 year old David Silva is pretty much asking to be ran through. And Newcastle, who have been called on this site “the most defensive, unambitious team” ever seen at the Etihad, ran right through the middle of us at will. Just like in Pellegrini’s era.

Barcelona played with a core of 433 for the best part of 30 years, they haven’t done too badly out of it. Yes, a tweak here and there for certain games, no problem.

But I think you’re perhaps forgetting Guardiola’s first season. We won our opening 10 games on the spin playing 433. Then he started experimenting with 3 at the back, most alarmingly in the Leicester away debacle, and we went to rats.

Guardiola said himself, he didn’t realise how willing teams were in England to launch the ball long in to the channels, play for second balls, long ball, counter-attacking football. He wasn’t prepared for it.

In his second season, he figured out controlling possesion and therefore the game, restricted the opponents ability to hurt us on the counter. 433 is ideal for that as it always allows at least 2 easy passing options and the extra man in the middle helps you to be less vulnerable to counters.

We got 100 points with it. Teams can study us, figure us out, but it doesn’t mean they are capable of stopping us.

We do have extra strings to our bow from last season, Mendy is an incredible attacking threat, Mahrez is a new option, Bernado is ready to play in the middle after a season of adjustment.

But we don’t have to reinvent the wheel in every game. Liverpool play the same way in every game, I expect Chelsea will. We did last season. Barca did in the vast majority of their games over their golden period. United played 442 for about 90% of their league games on the way to winning 13 titles.

By keeping the same core shape, it doesn’t mean you’re standing still. There is always room to tweak and improve. You don’t have to to go 3 and the back or 2 in midfield in order to improve.

 

[yerwot?]

Teams play City with a mindset of avoiding a thrashing ...a two nil loss is a job well done for most .
It was the same for arse pool rags in their era. Teams would try containment but basically avoid a rout was the strategy. What was crucial was the manager and the quality of squad plus luck, pool went a season using 14 players, unthinkable nowadays. Rotation at the sharp end is how we see it normally but starting this early is a better way imo, so players dont need to be rested. Therefore i believe Pepshould be judged on his juggling of personnel and tactics at the end rather than the beginning of this season

 

[OB1]

No. It was alarming how vulnerable we were on the counter against Wolves. Guardiola and several of the players have come out and said exactly the same thing. That’s why Mendy was a lot more reserved against Newcastle.

A 2 man midfield of a 33 year old Fernandinho and a 32 year old David Silva is pretty much asking to be ran through. And Newcastle, who have been called on this site “the most defensive, unambitious team” ever seen at the Etihad, ran right through the middle of us at will. Just like in Pellegrini’s era.

Barcelona played with a core of 433 for the best part of 30 years, they haven’t done too badly out of it. Yes, a tweak here and there for certain games, no problem.

But I think you’re perhaps forgetting Guardiola’s first season. We won our opening 10 games on the spin playing 433. Then he started experimenting with 3 at the back, most alarmingly in the Leicester away debacle, and we went to rats.

Guardiola said himself, he didn’t realise how willing teams were in England to launch the ball long in to the channels, play for second balls, long ball, counter-attacking football. He wasn’t prepared for it.

In his second season, he figured out controlling possesion and therefore the game, restricted the opponents ability to hurt us on the counter. 433 is ideal for that as it always allows at least 2 easy passing options and the extra man in the middle helps you to be less vulnerable to counters.

We got 100 points with it. Teams can study us, figure us out, but it doesn’t mean they are capable of stopping us.

We do have extra strings to our bow from last season, Mendy is an incredible attacking threat, Mahrez is a new option, Bernado is ready to play in the middle after a season of adjustment.

But we don’t have to reinvent the wheel in every game. Liverpool play the same way in every game, I expect Chelsea will. We did last season. Barca did in the vast majority of their games over their golden period. United played 442 for about 90% of their league games on the way to winning 13 titles.

By keeping the same core shape, it doesn’t mean you’re standing still. There is always room to tweak and improve. You don’t have to to go 3 and the back or 2 in midfield in order to improve.

Pep won't choose the same formation (or detailed tactics) in every game. He will want options and he is trying things out now in what I believe is an extended preseason. That may or may not have cost us two points but so might refereeing decisions.

We have not though been poor in any game this season so it's not working out too badly, so far.

Going back to Pep "tinkering", in his third and final season at Bayern, I think he had one run of about 10 games where he used something like 7 different formations in the league. He will look to constantly evolve and improve this team.

 

[Shaelumstash]

Pep won't choose the same formation (or detailed tactics) in every game. He will want options and he is trying things out now in what I believe is an extended preseason. That may or may not have cost us two points but so might refereeing decisions.

We have not though been poor in any game this season so it's not working out too badly, so far.

Going back to Pep "tinkering", in his third and final season at Bayern, I think he had one run of about 10 games where he used something like 7 different formations in the league. He will look to constantly evolve and improve this team.

Yeh I accept your point and I read about Pep’s tinkering towards the end at Bayern and I actually thought he carried that over in to his first season at City.

I think season 2 was more of a back to basics, a solid foundation of 433, with the odd tweak here and there, rotating the wide players for example.

I’m not saying we were terrible against Wolves or Newcastle. I’m just saying we were far too easy to counter attack. Pep has said as much himself.

We essentially played 424 on Saturday. If an English coach 20 years ago had left his team that short of numbers in the middle and that vulnerable to counter attacks, they’d get called a dinosaur.

I actually liked the way we played against Huddersfield. We defended in a 433 shape, Mendy dropped back in to a back 4 when we were defending and Jesus tracked their right hand side. And in possession, Mendy bombed on, Jesus went inside and Stones tucked in to make it a back 3.

It was something different, something the opposition hadn’t prepared for, it was a tweak that worked very well.

But against Newcastle, it was far too congensted up front, their 5 and our 4 camped on the edge of their box, it just didn’t work. We looked vulnerable in central midfield, which I’ve never seen from a Guardiola team.

When Bernado came on and we switched back to a 433, we were suddenly more fluid, controlled the game and looked solid again.

For me, we should start as a 433 and then change if required. A good example was West Ham at home where we couldn’t break them down, were we 1-0 down at half time? Then we changed to 2 up top and battered them.

I just think changing shape every game means we lose the continuity from game to game. Pep’s first season being a prime example. Players were getting confused and it lead to disorganisation and vulnerability.

Pep was accused by many at Bayern of over-thinking and over-complicating things in his final season. He’s an obsessive, a genius, of course I’m not trying to suggest I know better than him.

I’m just saying I wish someone (maybe Torrent used to do this) would tell him to trust in the team he built last season. Have the confidence in them that they are good enough to do it again.

 

[Rammy Blue]

Yeh I accept your point and I read about Pep’s tinkering towards the end at Bayern and I actually thought he carried that over in to his first season at City.

I think season 2 was more of a back to basics, a solid foundation of 433, with the odd tweak here and there, rotating the wide players for example.

I’m not saying we were terrible against Wolves or Newcastle. I’m just saying we were far too easy to counter attack. Pep has said as much himself.

We essentially played 424 on Saturday. If an English coach 20 years ago had left his team that short of numbers in the middle and that vulnerable to counter attacks, they’d get called a dinosaur.

I actually liked the way we played against Huddersfield. We defended in a 433 shape, Mendy dropped back in to a back 4 when we were defending and Jesus tracked their right hand side. And in possession, Mendy bombed on, Jesus went inside and Stones tucked in to make it a back 3.

It was something different, something the opposition hadn’t prepared for, it was a tweak that worked very well.

But against Newcastle, it was far too congensted up front, their 5 and our 4 camped on the edge of their box, it just didn’t work. We looked vulnerable in central midfield, which I’ve never seen from a Guardiola team.

When Bernado came on and we switched back to a 433, we were suddenly more fluid, controlled the game and looked solid again.

For me, we should start as a 433 and then change if required. A good example was West Ham at home where we couldn’t break them down, were we 1-0 down at half time? Then we changed to 2 up top and battered them.

I just think changing shape every game means we lose the continuity from game to game. Pep’s first season being a prime example. Players were getting confused and it lead to disorganisation and vulnerability.

Pep was accused by many at Bayern of over-thinking and over-complicating things in his final season. He’s an obsessive, a genius, of course I’m not trying to suggest I know better than him.

I’m just saying I wish someone (maybe Torrent used to do this) would tell him to trust in the team he built last season. Have the confidence in them that they are good enough to do it again.

I think OB1’s comment about extended pre-season is particularly true, I think Pep knew full well we had this 4 game run (5 incl Charity Shield) through to the international break and he fancied trying a few things out.

I completely understand your point of view and I think it holds water if we continue to tinker, however I’m confident Pep will be rewatching these past few games quite closely to see what he has learned - I didn’t like our formation on Saturday, Merlin was far too isolated playing on his own in advanced midfield which limited his ability to play intricate passes, hopefully we won’t see that formation again any time soon. What I do think Pep is very keen to be doing, against bus parking teams, is starting a game with Serg and Jesus up top, and the 2 formations we’ve seen in home games so far is testimony to that and Pep seeing what he likes about different ways of implementing it. Opposing teams will generally go 5 at the back against us and only playing 1 up top wasn’t easy last year IF we didn’t get an early goal.

 

[Father Paul]

Teams play City with a mindset of avoiding a thrashing ...a two nil loss is a job well done for most .
It was the same for arse pool rags in their era. Teams would try containment but basically avoid a rout was the strategy. What was crucial was the manager and the quality of squad plus luck, pool went a season using 14 players, unthinkable nowadays. Rotation at the sharp end is how we see it normally but starting this early is a better way imo, so players dont need to be rested. Therefore i believe Pepshould be judged on his juggling of personnel and tactics at the end rather than the beginning of this season

That makes sense to judge him at the end of the season. The early season rotation I am certain will bear fruit next spring. Tactics do need some experimentation and it is unfair to be critical of the man for trying this. However, the opening games have yielded a number of concerns. Mendy is a case in point. Richard Dunne said he lacks positional awareness and he is probably right. We will lose important goals in key games if we don't build in protection for this shortcoming. I think we are badly missing KDB and Sane as well Mahrez has had a rather poor start to his City career and personally I think he may be better deployed as an 8 rather than out wide. We have had a soo so start but we are only 2 points behind. If we are still only 2 adrift at the end of October we will be well on course to retain our crown.

 

[Callum Ramsey]

Yeh I accept your point and I read about Pep’s tinkering towards the end at Bayern and I actually thought he carried that over in to his first season at City.

I think season 2 was more of a back to basics, a solid foundation of 433, with the odd tweak here and there, rotating the wide players for example.

I’m not saying we were terrible against Wolves or Newcastle. I’m just saying we were far too easy to counter attack. Pep has said as much himself.

We essentially played 424 on Saturday. If an English coach 20 years ago had left his team that short of numbers in the middle and that vulnerable to counter attacks, they’d get called a dinosaur.

I actually liked the way we played against Huddersfield. We defended in a 433 shape, Mendy dropped back in to a back 4 when we were defending and Jesus tracked their right hand side. And in possession, Mendy bombed on, Jesus went inside and Stones tucked in to make it a back 3.

It was something different, something the opposition hadn’t prepared for, it was a tweak that worked very well.

But against Newcastle, it was far too congensted up front, their 5 and our 4 camped on the edge of their box, it just didn’t work. We looked vulnerable in central midfield, which I’ve never seen from a Guardiola team.

When Bernado came on and we switched back to a 433, we were suddenly more fluid, controlled the game and looked solid again.

For me, we should start as a 433 and then change if required. A good example was West Ham at home where we couldn’t break them down, were we 1-0 down at half time? Then we changed to 2 up top and battered them.

I just think changing shape every game means we lose the continuity from game to game. Pep’s first season being a prime example. Players were getting confused and it lead to disorganisation and vulnerability.

Pep was accused by many at Bayern of over-thinking and over-complicating things in his final season. He’s an obsessive, a genius, of course I’m not trying to suggest I know better than him.

I’m just saying I wish someone (maybe Torrent used to do this) would tell him to trust in the team he built last season. Have the confidence in them that they are good enough to do it again.

Agree completely. I feel what's happened is he looked at the few games(4 at most) last season where the team struggled to break teams down and needed a last minute goal to win. He probably feels in those games the team struggled to get men in the box and relied to heavily on the wingers(sane/sterling) as well as de bruyne and silva to unlock the opposition so to counter that he's tried experimenting with a 2 up front formation. The problem is doing that has also opened a new set of problems that the team didn't have last season.

What you have this season and especially the past 2 games against wolves and newcastle(1st half) is a formation that is basically a 3-1-6. You have your 3 defenders with dinho ahead of them and then 6 attackers with mendy joining in as another attacker on the left hand side. what has happened as a result is that a lot of players keep taking eachothers spaces, there's no set pattern of play like last season with the links between de-bruyne/silva and sterling/sane that were developing. the likes of silva can't get the ball in the half-spaces, turn and have options of runners ahead of him instead you have players often coming deep and receiving the ball with their backs to goal especially the wingers as was the case yesterday. So its left up to an individual brilliance or a mistake by the opposition for a goal to come instead of any fluid style of play.

But that is just the attacking side, what this new formation has done is left the team unable to both press effectively to win the ball back when they lose it and also able to retain possession and sustain attacks. As a result the opposition seems to always have an avenue to exploit on the counter when they win the ball. The match against wolves became an open one as a result and the 1st half yesterday especially after their goal was the same case. Look at the difference once bernardo came in for jesus and became an extra man in midfield and mendy was tasked with just sitting back and offering support instead of joining the attack at every opportunity. Even though there was only 1 goal in it, I never felt like the team would concede during those last 30 minutes when the team reverted back to the 4-3-3. I can count 3 or 4 games at most last season where you got the open game of that 1st half. The only hope teams had of scoring or creating a chance in 99% of the games was either through a set-piece or a wonderstrike/mistake by the team. Most teams could barely string 2 passes together when they had it and were always camped in their box including even the likes of chelsea.

That was the pattern last season, two wide men stretching the pitch and making it as wide as possible meaning spaces could be found in the half spaces by the likes of silva and de-bruyne who could recieve the ball, turn and have runners ahead of them doing what they do best. The team was always on the top, probing and creating chances and never looking in danger of being countered or conceding due to the fullbacks tucking inside almost as extra midfielder, as a result you always felt it a matter of when not if the goal would come. So when those late goals happened it wasn't against the run of play or anything unusual but rather a deserved one for the sustained pressure. I feel the team loses that structure and discipline with this new system.

And for those arguing the team needs to reinvent itself as to not stagnate, that doesn't necessarily mean in a change of system but rather in a change of player profile/quality. The more competition with added quality the team has the more it will strive to get better not by changing a system that clearly worked and wasn't able to be figured out by any team in the premier league or europe outside of liverpool.

The greatest domestic teams of the modern era that went on to dominate their leagues for multiple seasons did so without needing to reinvent or change their system. Conte's juve stuck with a 3-5-2 formation throughout his time there and they dominated the league for 3 seasons, likewise the united team that won 3 titles in a row did so with a 4-4-2 formation. Nothing about each of those teams' systems changed. Which brings it to the main point, pep is clearly someone who is quite obsessive and sometimes tends to overthink things and this may be the case this season.

The formation and system didn't need any changes, it just needed more competition for places to keep the players on their toes. He even started the season against both chelsea and arsenal at the emirates with the same 4-3-3 formation/system of last season but just with different personnel and they didn't seem to struggle. In fact they barely got out of second gear in both games to win them comfortably and rarely looked like conceding. This tinkering these past 2 games has clearly unbalanced the side and its rhythm so why not just get back to what had just contributed to a record breaking season unheard of in this league. Yes I know its early but if the experimenting continues the next few games I'm afraid there may be some more dropped points against teams the team should be beating comfortably.