typical city fan said:
dax, saying ipso facto doesn't necessarily make you correct
I never said it did. Even though it does :P The act of throwing a Bananas at black player is roundly understood to be an euphemism for comparing said player to a monkey. It is the equivalent of someone sticking out the middle finger at another in the middle of an argument- That act is roundly understood to mean "Fuck You." And it is bemusing to suggest a directed middle finger in an argument could be other than. This seems to be the claim the Emirate's police are making. And it is interesting that it makes few go hmmm!
i think the sfa had to make a big deal out of refuting the allegations as if they didn't then the image of the tartan army would be extremely damaged (possibly irreparably).
This presupposes the existence of an actual allegation directed at the Tartan Army that required refutation. As has been shown many times, Neymar did not accuse the Scot fans of throwing the banana. Rather he lamented the occurrence of the incident. Quite similar to your claim below that "this things should not happen." Now one would be remiss to consider your show of disappointment as an accusation against Germans, would they not?
the fact that the german fan in the brazil end was the actual culprit i think backs up the claims of both the sfa and the supporters at the match that there was no racist atmosphere. Before you start, one idiot does not constitute an atmosphere.
Again, this claim while not disproved, can not be proven either. Certainly not at the speed and alacrity at which the Scottish FA released their refutation of a non accusation. It seems we are roundly missing the point. The Scottish FA made a claim prior to any knowledge of later facts, about a group that is neither homogeneous or Borg like in response. I mean even if the Banana thrower and a bunch of his friends turned out to be Scottish, that still wouldn't make the Tartan Army racist. Just the element amongst them who were! The actions of one person does not speak for the group, just like the 'purported' german who threw the banana does not make ALL German fans racist. Additionally, the "atmosphere of racism' is spelled out by the acts perpetrated, and not the number of persons perpetrating the act. Especially in a crowd where banana throwing occurs, the victim would be excused, i
f he doesn't stop to ask by a show of hands which amongst the multitude supports the act
Lets not forget, that even in the article that published the 'supposed refutation', it clearly states that Neymar accused "some fans of racism." i.e. Suggesting Neymar himself understands that this did not encompass everyone, nor does the "some fans" specify which. He later even claimed outright that they didn't know who threw the banana and thus couldn't prove anything. Such to me does not suggest someone accusing the Tartan Army of anything. Worse still is the slight of hand, attempted by the SFA :( By turning an accusation focused on the throwing of a banana to one suggesting it was an accusation at those booing. :( A simple reading of Neymar's comments clearly showed his claim of poor behavior, was particularly in reference to the throwing of a banana.
are you aware that saying Europeans are racist is actually kind of racist too, or at the least a sweeping generalisation,
I didn't say Europeans were racist, and by the way even if I had, it would make me prejudiced not racist. There is a subtle difference there. But for the record, my contention was that the sensibilities of Europeans towards the expression of racism often leaves much to be desired, (In my opinion). And yes, I understand this is a generalization, but it is a generalization often supported by the actions of authorities towards racism. You said earlier that I was wrong to suggest that 1) the throwing of a banana 2) in a football game 3) at a black player, was ipso facto racist. Apparently the Emirate police agrees with you. As they concluded no intent without a statement or suggestion of why this was so. The reaction to the act was dismissive. The reactions of many members here was equally so. Some followed the lead of the SFA,of accusing the victim of alleging false claims. Others questioned the truth of the claim (i.e. that a banana was in fact thrown) This all prior to knowing the facts. The push back against the claim was in full swing long before most became aware. A good example (albeit, admittedly extreme) would be to read the reactions of 20sbc07. His position initially was to Insult Neymar and accuse him of lying. He then suggested it was impossible for a banana to be thrown without someone catching it on camera (common sense suggests it is quite possible for that to be the case). Once it was determined beyond any doubt that a banana was in fact thrown, he claimed it was from the Brazilian end. Unfortunately for him, the video he originally saw, showed the picking up of the banana, (and not at the time it was thrown) seeing that video alone, he hypothesized that the Banana may have been thrown at a Scottish defender who fell next to it when it was picked up. When later video showed that it was in fact thrown after the penalty and in the general vicinity of where Neymar was celebrating his goal, he switched modes and accused anyone who viewed Neymar as a black man, rather than just another man of being racist. In essence obscuring the relevance of race in order to excuse the intent of the throwing.
Now while that does not express the views of most Europeans, it does mimic to an extent the modus operandi of its authorities (particularly in this matter.)
Viewing the actions of the SFA, there actions were similar, albeit a little more tactful than 20sbc07 (who by the way took some of his cues from the SFA). Their initial and continuous reaction was not to worry about the act, but to reverse the identity of the victim. In their opinion the act was irrelevant. More important was the implied accusation that they themselves actually drummed up.
1) they denied a claim that was never made. At no point did Neymar accuse the Tartan Army of anything (just like 20cbs07)
2) The made a claim that was later proven to be false (i.e. that their were no issues at all inside the stadium"
3.) They lauded the attitude of the Tartan Army. A fluff claim considering all groups have pockets of outlaws and the TA is no different/
4) They then turned the victim into an enemy by generalizing his claim. I.e. "Our fans our disappointed at this accusations"
This in my opinion is a far cry from what I expected. The correct way to have dealt with the situation in my opinion is to state:
1) The association condemns racism at all times. And so does the Tartan Army. Such behavior should not be acceptable anywhere nor does the SFA or the Scottish fans as a group accept it.
2) If there is any truth to the allegations, it was unfortunate and clearly not a representation of the impeccable behavior the Tartan Army are well known for.
3) However, according to many fans who were at the game, Neymar was booed for what was deemed to be unsportsmanlike theatrics on his part. Nonetheless, if there were any incidents during the game, such incidents should be investigated, and if found guilty, the perpetrators should be punished. As their actions brings disrepute to the beautiful game.
I mean, would anyone really have been opposed to the above statement? ANd truth be told, such a statement would have charted the direction of the ensuing discourse correctly and positively.
anyway, this kind of shit should not happen, and whether the guy just got caught up in the moment or not i bet he is regretting it now.
Neymar's sentiments exactly. You and Neymar are not so different afterall :)
i for one am just thankful that it wasn't a scottish fan that threw it, and i hope the brazilian fa acknowledge this. Considering the neither the Brazilian FA, nor Neymar accused the Scots of racism in the first place, I see no reason to acknowledge wrong in regards to a claim they never made. Better yet, just like everyone else, I presume they are just hoping such incidences stop occurring.
]I'm sure that you will now proceed to tell me that there was a racist atmosphere
and that we should all be ashamed of ourselves. but in the immortal words of mick the lad was a "tart" and if i was there i would have booed him too,
Now why would you assume the bolded above :? I hope for a better understanding and a more civilized society, where opposition is not mistaken for enemy. And where racism is jointly condemned as opposed to denied or defensively reacted to. It would be self deceit to presume, racism does not exist in any country (in Europe, America or elsewhere), but since a majority abhor it, it is in our collective interest to collectively condemn it. As that is how it gets stamped out. Certainly, ignoring it, deny it, or changing the focus of the subject, while not in itself racist, it does fosters its existence.