big blueballs said:Thanks for getting back to my post, I hoped you would....and there are a hell of a lot of, ifs, buts and maybes in your response....i won't be paying any parking invoices I may collect in the foreseeable future no matterBillyBonds said:oakiecokie - Fair point! As soon as though, please. :))
tangaroa - Thank for the welcome. I've lurked for a while as I especially like keeping up with the 'gifs of the day' thread :)
Re parking notice -
You can, as some have said ignore it and hope it'll go away but, as I pointed, out more of these companies are becoming litigious (especially Parking Eye fyi).
Personally, I'd try and nip it in the bud by complaining at the stores etc, as I've suggested.
big blueballs said:I have had 2 in the last 6 months and have ignored both....the letters get more threatening but do stop after about the 5th or 6th and that was it haven't heared anymore
That usually was the case, but have a read of posts in that link, hundreds are now receiving Court papers more than a year after the original parking notice.
The law has been changed and they can pursue you in court
The law hasn't changed, it's just that they never bothered. The change has been that they can now pursue the registered keeper, and get their details through the DVLA if the driver isn't named.
.....but and it is a very big but...fair value comes into play and what these theiving twats want you to pay is not fair value....basically where I was concerned they wanted me to pay £60 for a 15minute overstay in a car park where the 1st 2 hours are free....the chances that a judge would allow this to stand are remote he/she There have been a few instances where the judge has gone against this as they are not as clued up on this as we'd like to think.
would say that 2hours free but you want £60 for 15minutes how can that be right...they may uphold the parking companies claim but would award fair value which based on parking being free for 2 hours would be next to nothing for a 15min overstay....this is why these companies don't pursue all these non payers in court even though the law has been changed....
You are correct to say some companies don't bother but if you ignore everything and then get Court papers you will have to submit a defence within 14 days and then produce an evidence bundle. You will then be faced with attending Court and either hoping the PPC don't attend or fighting your corner armed with your defence. If you ignore the Court papers or don't attend the PPC will win by default.
I would ignore it....and hope that I wasn't going to be in the 1% they do take all the way....even if they do take you all the way which is highly unlikely, you can argue fair value anyway
You can't just turn up and argue 'fair value'. You have to go through the Court system which is not worth the aggro' when this can be stopped early by either complaining or submitting an appeal. The forum I linked has a 100% win rate at POPLA for correctly worded appeals. the 'fair value' issue is a matter for the Judge to decide. The PPC's need to be attacked on their 'Genuine Pre Estimate of Losses' (search for that in the forum, you'll see what I mean) as well as other points.
Also forgot to add....do not get in touch with or correspond with them even though the date is wrong....just throw each letter in the bin
If you decide to appeal you will need to contact them to get a POPLA code (fortunately this costs them money and they have to provide one) again there is advice re wording to the PPC and getting a POPLA code within the forum. DO NOT name the driver in any corres'
gazhinio - Have a read of this thread <a class="postlink" href="http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4606145" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/sho ... ?t=4606145</a> Although different circumstances, it'll highlight the points/advice I've been giving plus more.
At the end of the day it's your decision, but I strongly advise you to have a good read of the forum being you make a decision.
Anyway, good luck. I'll shut up now.........now where's that 'gifs' post with Susannah Reid on it..........
As for judges not knowing about fair value, they would know if anyone taken to court did mention it, and one last thing BB which of the bent parking firms do you work for?
Mustard Dave said:Note: I am not a lawyer, and contrary to the opinion of one particular idiot on BM, I do not work for a parking company. This advice is based on my studies of contract law as part of construction and property courses and my experience with dealing with private parking companies.
The relevant legislation that has changed is the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. This is the same legislation that made private clamping a criminal offence. Before the law changed, private parking tickets were based on contract law. For a contract to be valid, there has to be an offer, consideration and acceptance. Note for a contract to exist, there does not need to be a physical agreement. With a parking contract, the T&Cs are displayed on signs - this is their offer. This will include details of any penalties for overstay etc. You then have the opportunity to consider whether to accept the offer and the act of parking signifies acceptance. A private parking ticket is nothing more than an invoice.
For a motorist, this type of implied contract was very easy to get out of. It is extremely difficult to prove a verbal or implied contract existed, or who it existed between. The parking companies would write to the DVLA for the registered keeper details, which would give them an address to send the invoice to. Before the PoF Act, the contract existed between the driver and the car park operator. The registered keeper was under no obligation to identify the driver, so the parking company had no means of proving there was a contract unless the registered keeper identified the driver.
When the PoF was introduced, it made the registered keeper responsible for any parking tickets. Most feel this was a trade-off for banning private clamping. In order for a parking company to enforce a contract, they have to comply with an Accredited Trade Association's guidelines regarding placement of notices etc. They also have to have an appeals procedure and if requested, they have to refer appeals to an independent panel called POPLA. Even if POPLA find in favour of the parking company, the motorist is still not obliged to pay the invoice and they would have to then take them to court.
The PoF act is still very young and parking companies are shitting themselves over taking people to court as they are still on very shaky ground legally. These tickets are still nothing more than invoices based on contract law. An unfair contract is not legally enforceable, nor are punitive penalties. A private individual or company can only charge for actual losses and reasonable admin fees. Nobody could argue £100 or £60 is a reasonable or justified charge for a less than 20 minute overstay.
You have two main options - ignore it or appeal. If you ignore it, chances are they will send you a few threatening letters and then give up. It costs a lot of money to pursue the matter and the possibility of losing is too great a risk as it could influence future judgements. In the event they did pursue it, the court may take a dim view of the fact you ignored their letters.
Personally I would appeal, but I would word it as a refusal to pay rather than a polite request to cancel the ticket. If you were genuinely shopping for the time stated, there are no losses and therefore no penalty can be claimed. If you have receipts, it would be worth enclosing copies to support your claim.
There is another option which many people claim has been successful and that is to send them a cheque for a tenner to cover the costs incurred. The thinking behind this is if it does end up before a judge, he will not look favourably upon them if they have declined a reasonable offer. this, in my opinion, is more suited to pay and display car parks where they can demonstrate a loss of income. As this is a free car park for the benefit of shoppers, and therefore the benefit of the tenants who pay the service charge, their losses are squilch.
Whatever you chose - do this now:
Edit the original post.
The details in the OP make it very easy for the parking company to identify which ticket this relates to. The parking companies do search the internet and there have been instances where they have used comments against people. Take out the name of the retail park and the dates.
Do not bow down to bully boy tactics. You may receive very formal letters from debt recovery agents. Quite often these are subsidiaries of the parking company, often with the same address. They are usually template letters filled in and sent out by general office clerks with no legal qualifications. They have no powers without the backing of a court which they cannot get until a judgement is passed.
Another tactic they have been known to use is to send out court paperwork. Often these papers are merely applications that have not yet been lodged with the court (and most likely never will be). They may also make suggestions that you could end up with a CCJ - this is bollocks of the highest order. In the unlikely event they take you to court and the court finds in their favour, the CCJ would only be recorded if you failed to comply with that judgement.
I had a ticket in April at Morrison's in Inverness. I was travelling to Orkney and stopped there for something to eat in the cafe. When I returned, I found a ticket stuck to my window for failing to pay and display. I genuinely did not know it was a pay and display and I retraced my path from the entrance to the car park and from my car to the shop. I told them I would not be paying as there was no sign at the entrance and I didn't pass any signs on my route through the car park. They eventually emailed me, two days after the time scale stated on their appeals procedure, informing me my appeal had been successful.
With regards to the 14 day period, this does not apply. I think there has been some confusion with the requirement for Notice of Intent to Prosecute (speeding tickets etc.) and does not apply to parking invoices.
This, unenforceable, ignore.barney* said:Just ignore it
banjo said:My Mrs is going through the same at the moment with a charge from ASDA in Ashton. She wanted to pay it but I convinced her not to. We're about 6 letters in and having offered a reduced charge they are now threatening court action, They can whistle for it.
Non of the letters have been record delivery so I presume we can just claim ignorance and say we have never received any of their correspondence should it ever kick off?
Letter number six this morning, headed "Reduced payment offer"
Apparently the parking company has proposed issuing County Court proceedings, but in order to prevent it is willing to accept a reduced payment of £96
If payment is not received within 7 days the outstanding balance will become payable in full
Again the letter has arrived second class and not recorded delivery
Mustard Dave said:Note: I am not a lawyer, and contrary to the opinion of one particular idiot on BM, I do not work for a parking company. This advice is based on my studies of contract law as part of construction and property courses and my experience with dealing with private parking companies.
The relevant legislation that has changed is the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. This is the same legislation that made private clamping a criminal offence. Before the law changed, private parking tickets were based on contract law. For a contract to be valid, there has to be an offer, consideration and acceptance. Note for a contract to exist, there does not need to be a physical agreement. With a parking contract, the T&Cs are displayed on signs - this is their offer. This will include details of any penalties for overstay etc. You then have the opportunity to consider whether to accept the offer and the act of parking signifies acceptance. A private parking ticket is nothing more than an invoice.
For a motorist, this type of implied contract was very easy to get out of. It is extremely difficult to prove a verbal or implied contract existed, or who it existed between. The parking companies would write to the DVLA for the registered keeper details, which would give them an address to send the invoice to. Before the PoF Act, the contract existed between the driver and the car park operator. The registered keeper was under no obligation to identify the driver, so the parking company had no means of proving there was a contract unless the registered keeper identified the driver.
When the PoF was introduced, it made the registered keeper responsible for any parking tickets. Most feel this was a trade-off for banning private clamping. In order for a parking company to enforce a contract, they have to comply with an Accredited Trade Association's guidelines regarding placement of notices etc. They also have to have an appeals procedure and if requested, they have to refer appeals to an independent panel called POPLA. Even if POPLA find in favour of the parking company, the motorist is still not obliged to pay the invoice and they would have to then take them to court.
The PoF act is still very young and parking companies are shitting themselves over taking people to court as they are still on very shaky ground legally. These tickets are still nothing more than invoices based on contract law. An unfair contract is not legally enforceable, nor are punitive penalties. A private individual or company can only charge for actual losses and reasonable admin fees. Nobody could argue £100 or £60 is a reasonable or justified charge for a less than 20 minute overstay.
You have two main options - ignore it or appeal. If you ignore it, chances are they will send you a few threatening letters and then give up. It costs a lot of money to pursue the matter and the possibility of losing is too great a risk as it could influence future judgements. In the event they did pursue it, the court may take a dim view of the fact you ignored their letters.
Personally I would appeal, but I would word it as a refusal to pay rather than a polite request to cancel the ticket. If you were genuinely shopping for the time stated, there are no losses and therefore no penalty can be claimed. If you have receipts, it would be worth enclosing copies to support your claim.
There is another option which many people claim has been successful and that is to send them a cheque for a tenner to cover the costs incurred. The thinking behind this is if it does end up before a judge, he will not look favourably upon them if they have declined a reasonable offer. this, in my opinion, is more suited to pay and display car parks where they can demonstrate a loss of income. As this is a free car park for the benefit of shoppers, and therefore the benefit of the tenants who pay the service charge, their losses are squilch.
Whatever you chose - do this now:
Edit the original post.
The details in the OP make it very easy for the parking company to identify which ticket this relates to. The parking companies do search the internet and there have been instances where they have used comments against people. Take out the name of the retail park and the dates.
Do not bow down to bully boy tactics. You may receive very formal letters from debt recovery agents. Quite often these are subsidiaries of the parking company, often with the same address. They are usually template letters filled in and sent out by general office clerks with no legal qualifications. They have no powers without the backing of a court which they cannot get until a judgement is passed.
Another tactic they have been known to use is to send out court paperwork. Often these papers are merely applications that have not yet been lodged with the court (and most likely never will be). They may also make suggestions that you could end up with a CCJ - this is bollocks of the highest order. In the unlikely event they take you to court and the court finds in their favour, the CCJ would only be recorded if you failed to comply with that judgement.
I had a ticket in April at Morrison's in Inverness. I was travelling to Orkney and stopped there for something to eat in the cafe. When I returned, I found a ticket stuck to my window for failing to pay and display. I genuinely did not know it was a pay and display and I retraced my path from the entrance to the car park and from my car to the shop. I told them I would not be paying as there was no sign at the entrance and I didn't pass any signs on my route through the car park. They eventually emailed me, two days after the time scale stated on their appeals procedure, informing me my appeal had been successful.
With regards to the 14 day period, this does not apply. I think there has been some confusion with the requirement for Notice of Intent to Prosecute (speeding tickets etc.) and does not apply to parking invoices.
denislawsbackheel said:Mustard Dave said:Note: I am not a lawyer, and contrary to the opinion of one particular idiot on BM, I do not work for a parking company. This advice is based on my studies of contract law as part of construction and property courses and my experience with dealing with private parking companies.
The relevant legislation that has changed is the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. This is the same legislation that made private clamping a criminal offence. Before the law changed, private parking tickets were based on contract law. For a contract to be valid, there has to be an offer, consideration and acceptance. Note for a contract to exist, there does not need to be a physical agreement. With a parking contract, the T&Cs are displayed on signs - this is their offer. This will include details of any penalties for overstay etc. You then have the opportunity to consider whether to accept the offer and the act of parking signifies acceptance. A private parking ticket is nothing more than an invoice.
For a motorist, this type of implied contract was very easy to get out of. It is extremely difficult to prove a verbal or implied contract existed, or who it existed between. The parking companies would write to the DVLA for the registered keeper details, which would give them an address to send the invoice to. Before the PoF Act, the contract existed between the driver and the car park operator. The registered keeper was under no obligation to identify the driver, so the parking company had no means of proving there was a contract unless the registered keeper identified the driver.
When the PoF was introduced, it made the registered keeper responsible for any parking tickets. Most feel this was a trade-off for banning private clamping. In order for a parking company to enforce a contract, they have to comply with an Accredited Trade Association's guidelines regarding placement of notices etc. They also have to have an appeals procedure and if requested, they have to refer appeals to an independent panel called POPLA. Even if POPLA find in favour of the parking company, the motorist is still not obliged to pay the invoice and they would have to then take them to court.
The PoF act is still very young and parking companies are shitting themselves over taking people to court as they are still on very shaky ground legally. These tickets are still nothing more than invoices based on contract law. An unfair contract is not legally enforceable, nor are punitive penalties. A private individual or company can only charge for actual losses and reasonable admin fees. Nobody could argue £100 or £60 is a reasonable or justified charge for a less than 20 minute overstay.
You have two main options - ignore it or appeal. If you ignore it, chances are they will send you a few threatening letters and then give up. It costs a lot of money to pursue the matter and the possibility of losing is too great a risk as it could influence future judgements. In the event they did pursue it, the court may take a dim view of the fact you ignored their letters.
Personally I would appeal, but I would word it as a refusal to pay rather than a polite request to cancel the ticket. If you were genuinely shopping for the time stated, there are no losses and therefore no penalty can be claimed. If you have receipts, it would be worth enclosing copies to support your claim.
There is another option which many people claim has been successful and that is to send them a cheque for a tenner to cover the costs incurred. The thinking behind this is if it does end up before a judge, he will not look favourably upon them if they have declined a reasonable offer. this, in my opinion, is more suited to pay and display car parks where they can demonstrate a loss of income. As this is a free car park for the benefit of shoppers, and therefore the benefit of the tenants who pay the service charge, their losses are squilch.
Whatever you chose - do this now:
Edit the original post.
The details in the OP make it very easy for the parking company to identify which ticket this relates to. The parking companies do search the internet and there have been instances where they have used comments against people. Take out the name of the retail park and the dates.
Do not bow down to bully boy tactics. You may receive very formal letters from debt recovery agents. Quite often these are subsidiaries of the parking company, often with the same address. They are usually template letters filled in and sent out by general office clerks with no legal qualifications. They have no powers without the backing of a court which they cannot get until a judgement is passed.
Another tactic they have been known to use is to send out court paperwork. Often these papers are merely applications that have not yet been lodged with the court (and most likely never will be). They may also make suggestions that you could end up with a CCJ - this is bollocks of the highest order. In the unlikely event they take you to court and the court finds in their favour, the CCJ would only be recorded if you failed to comply with that judgement.
I had a ticket in April at Morrison's in Inverness. I was travelling to Orkney and stopped there for something to eat in the cafe. When I returned, I found a ticket stuck to my window for failing to pay and display. I genuinely did not know it was a pay and display and I retraced my path from the entrance to the car park and from my car to the shop. I told them I would not be paying as there was no sign at the entrance and I didn't pass any signs on my route through the car park. They eventually emailed me, two days after the time scale stated on their appeals procedure, informing me my appeal had been successful.
With regards to the 14 day period, this does not apply. I think there has been some confusion with the requirement for Notice of Intent to Prosecute (speeding tickets etc.) and does not apply to parking invoices.
Despite this brilliantly thorough post there will still be gobby know nothings offering contrary advice.
117 M34 said:denislawsbackheel said:Mustard Dave said:Note: I am not a lawyer, and contrary to the opinion of one particular idiot on BM, I do not work for a parking company. This advice is based on my studies of contract law as part of construction and property courses and my experience with dealing with private parking companies.
The relevant legislation that has changed is the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. This is the same legislation that made private clamping a criminal offence. Before the law changed, private parking tickets were based on contract law. For a contract to be valid, there has to be an offer, consideration and acceptance. Note for a contract to exist, there does not need to be a physical agreement. With a parking contract, the T&Cs are displayed on signs - this is their offer. This will include details of any penalties for overstay etc. You then have the opportunity to consider whether to accept the offer and the act of parking signifies acceptance. A private parking ticket is nothing more than an invoice.
For a motorist, this type of implied contract was very easy to get out of. It is extremely difficult to prove a verbal or implied contract existed, or who it existed between. The parking companies would write to the DVLA for the registered keeper details, which would give them an address to send the invoice to. Before the PoF Act, the contract existed between the driver and the car park operator. The registered keeper was under no obligation to identify the driver, so the parking company had no means of proving there was a contract unless the registered keeper identified the driver.
When the PoF was introduced, it made the registered keeper responsible for any parking tickets. Most feel this was a trade-off for banning private clamping. In order for a parking company to enforce a contract, they have to comply with an Accredited Trade Association's guidelines regarding placement of notices etc. They also have to have an appeals procedure and if requested, they have to refer appeals to an independent panel called POPLA. Even if POPLA find in favour of the parking company, the motorist is still not obliged to pay the invoice and they would have to then take them to court.
The PoF act is still very young and parking companies are shitting themselves over taking people to court as they are still on very shaky ground legally. These tickets are still nothing more than invoices based on contract law. An unfair contract is not legally enforceable, nor are punitive penalties. A private individual or company can only charge for actual losses and reasonable admin fees. Nobody could argue £100 or £60 is a reasonable or justified charge for a less than 20 minute overstay.
You have two main options - ignore it or appeal. If you ignore it, chances are they will send you a few threatening letters and then give up. It costs a lot of money to pursue the matter and the possibility of losing is too great a risk as it could influence future judgements. In the event they did pursue it, the court may take a dim view of the fact you ignored their letters.
Personally I would appeal, but I would word it as a refusal to pay rather than a polite request to cancel the ticket. If you were genuinely shopping for the time stated, there are no losses and therefore no penalty can be claimed. If you have receipts, it would be worth enclosing copies to support your claim.
There is another option which many people claim has been successful and that is to send them a cheque for a tenner to cover the costs incurred. The thinking behind this is if it does end up before a judge, he will not look favourably upon them if they have declined a reasonable offer. this, in my opinion, is more suited to pay and display car parks where they can demonstrate a loss of income. As this is a free car park for the benefit of shoppers, and therefore the benefit of the tenants who pay the service charge, their losses are squilch.
Whatever you chose - do this now:
Edit the original post.
The details in the OP make it very easy for the parking company to identify which ticket this relates to. The parking companies do search the internet and there have been instances where they have used comments against people. Take out the name of the retail park and the dates.
Do not bow down to bully boy tactics. You may receive very formal letters from debt recovery agents. Quite often these are subsidiaries of the parking company, often with the same address. They are usually template letters filled in and sent out by general office clerks with no legal qualifications. They have no powers without the backing of a court which they cannot get until a judgement is passed.
Another tactic they have been known to use is to send out court paperwork. Often these papers are merely applications that have not yet been lodged with the court (and most likely never will be). They may also make suggestions that you could end up with a CCJ - this is bollocks of the highest order. In the unlikely event they take you to court and the court finds in their favour, the CCJ would only be recorded if you failed to comply with that judgement.
I had a ticket in April at Morrison's in Inverness. I was travelling to Orkney and stopped there for something to eat in the cafe. When I returned, I found a ticket stuck to my window for failing to pay and display. I genuinely did not know it was a pay and display and I retraced my path from the entrance to the car park and from my car to the shop. I told them I would not be paying as there was no sign at the entrance and I didn't pass any signs on my route through the car park. They eventually emailed me, two days after the time scale stated on their appeals procedure, informing me my appeal had been successful.
With regards to the 14 day period, this does not apply. I think there has been some confusion with the requirement for Notice of Intent to Prosecute (speeding tickets etc.) and does not apply to parking invoices.
Despite this brilliantly thorough post there will still be gobby know nothings offering contrary advice.
When I got mine, I followed the advice of the gobby know nothings on here. I didn't go to prison or court or pay any money - just like the OP wouldn't.