Political relations between UK-EU

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ric
  • Start date Start date
Well I’ll take your word for that and you’d represent that compassionate side of yours more if you restrained yourself from belittling posts that suggest there are some short term losers from Brexit
I was genuinely not intending to do that

Just drawing the distinction between those incidents and the apocalypse that some insisted would happen

Can you accept that it has not?

No other Remainers have that I have spotted

Would it not be fair for Leavers to expect that some would?
 
Last edited:
I was genuinely not intending to do that

Just draw the distinction between those incidents and the apocalypse that some insisted would happen

Can you accept that it has not?

No other Remainers have that I have spotted

Would it not be fair for Leavers to expect that some would?
Yes I’d accept that on a large scale the apocalypse has not happened... yet. And I never expected an earthquake the day after Brexit. However several people have been affected by tremors and the jury will be out for a while on how successful Brexit is for the country. The evidence against seems to be mounting, albeit on a small scale and of course I know you look to the longer term. I guess the question is how long do we give it before we start to doubt that sentiment?
 
Seems there’s a new narrative amongst the Brexit fans that they were told by Remainers that Brexit would cause an immediate apocalypse and would be catastrophic. The reality was that this was stated about No Deal. With a deal most sensible people just reckoned it would be a bit crap and not immediately noticeable day to day. Seems the reality is that it’s actually worse than a bit crap for many but most haven’t noticed yet.
 
Being Pro-Brexit has taken a fair few people down various RW rabbit holes. A good number of the people you would most associate with being Pro-Brexit happen to be on the right of politics and a person who is Pro-Brexit could quite conceivably have looked for evidence to back up their reasoning from various websites that unbeknown to them lead them down the rabbit holes. They become part of the Pro-Brexit team. Some of the leaders of the Pro-Brexit team know this and it gives them a captive audience to spread further propaganda. A person who starts out thinking Pro-Brexit is a reasonable political position is also subjected to what the Pro-Brexit leaders believe in, be it climate change denial, anti-vax, QAnon, etc They are also fed a diet of propaganda stating that being Pro-Brexit makes them a Patriot so they look to identify with other Patriots, that leads them to the MAGA stuff and the American Patriots. Hence on twitter you see a proliferation of flags . Human beings like to be part of a collective identity, me and you do it with City for example. That is part of our collective identity and as a result we will tend to see all things from very much a Blue perspective.




Good post Rasc. In summary then, it’s because all anti-vaccers are idiots and most idiots are pro-Brexit.
dunno what the hell you were attempting with that quoting.
 
Yes I’d accept that on a large scale the apocalypse has not happened... yet. And I never expected an earthquake the day after Brexit. However several people have been affected by tremors and the jury will be out for a while on how successful Brexit is for the country. The evidence against seems to be mounting, albeit on a small scale and of course I know you look to the longer term. I guess the question is how long do we give it before we start to doubt that sentiment?
There are people on this thread that have experience in managing major transformation programmes

Let's just say that - how Brexit has been done does not reflect 'best practice'

I have said on many occasions that the UK should have been managing Brexit as a major change programme since 2016. I have also said many times that Leave supporters have a lot more reason to be unhappy with the UK government than Remainers - May/Hammond wasted years refusing to sanction/commence/fund the planning and preparation for the UK to Leave the EU - they bear a lot of the responsibility for any lack of preparedness

Rank amateurish management by the UK government for 4 years
 
The evidence against seems to be mounting, albeit on a small scale

In the first week that seems to be affecting the fishing industry - predictable really because fresh fish sold abroad has to be moved fast and all the customs hold ups etc are not amenable to that.

After being warned of this impact on their totem I expect that by week 2 Leavers will resort to the other thing they were told " its only a small issue as fishing is such a small part of our economy" with not one jot of irony in the statement.

This will be the impact of the changes in the relationship with the EU sticking to what they said they would do from the outset.
 
There are people on this thread that have experience in managing major transformation programmes

Let's just say that - how Brexit has been done does not reflect 'best practice'

I have said on many occasions that the UK should have been managing Brexit as a major change programme since 2016. I have also said many times that Leave supporters have a lot more reason to be unhappy with the UK government than Remainers - May/Hammond wasted years refusing to sanction/commence/fund the planning and preparation for the UK to Leave the EU - they bear a lot of the responsibility for any lack of preparedness

Rank amateurish management by the UK government for 4 years

That because Brexit was trapped by its own rhetoric. There was no need to ‘sanction/commence/fund the planning and preparation for the UK to Leave the EU’, as we would be getting the same deal we had now or even better.

Then when it started going pear shaped, we stubbornly clung to the idea we could ‘have our cake and eat it‘ because they sold stuff to us and ‘German car makers’.

Finally, we also believed that the EU would back down at the last minute and give us everything we wanted thereby making any planning and preparation redundant. Steely British resolve and all that.

In the end we caved on the outstanding issues and we are left pretending that there is no Irish Sea border (there is), and there would be no form filling or checks (there are) and that the deal meant, to quote Johnson, ‘there are no non tariff barriers’, which was a lie as there is now a web of administration, rules and regulations, the extent of which is slowly dawning on UK industry.

The problem with selling something with lies is that you can never come clean on the truth or prepare for the reality.
 
Proof - more fish - 7 days in and the fishing industry finds out that what they were promised and what they have got are polar opposites - suits Johnson though as this will be handy when he needs a diversion to claim the EU post Brexit aren't sticking to the "spirit" of the rules when in fact they are just sticking to the rules as was pointed out all along


The BBC 2 series Cornwall, A Fishing Life is very educational. Tonight's had them catching crabs for export to Spain and others pointing out that the price of holiday coastal homes mean they have to live well inland, a long drive to keep an eye on their boat.

And perhaps the bloviating poster who wouldn't discuss fish can admit he knows nothing about the industry.
 
Last edited:
The BBC 2 series Cornwall, A Fishing Life is very educational. Tonight's had them catching crabs for export to Spain and others pointing out that holiday coastal homes mean they have to live well inland, a long drive to keep an eye on their boat.

well if they can't sell abroad and their boats are just tied up they won't need to travel much so that petrol saving is their Brexit bonus ! Did they say which way they voted? - oh !


and they were still happy with what they voted for in 2019

 
There are people on this thread that have experience in managing major transformation programmes

Let's just say that - how Brexit has been done does not reflect 'best practice'

I have said on many occasions that the UK should have been managing Brexit as a major change programme since 2016. I have also said many times that Leave supporters have a lot more reason to be unhappy with the UK government than Remainers - May/Hammond wasted years refusing to sanction/commence/fund the planning and preparation for the UK to Leave the EU - they bear a lot of the responsibility for any lack of preparedness

Rank amateurish management by the UK government for 4 years
Ah, it ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it. Bullshit.
 
That because Brexit was trapped by its own rhetoric. There was no need to ‘sanction/commence/fund the planning and preparation for the UK to Leave the EU’, as we would be getting the same deal we had now or even better.

Then when it started going pear shaped, we stubbornly clung to the idea we could ‘have our cake and eat it‘ because they sold stuff to us and ‘German car makers’.

Finally, we also believed that the EU would back down at the last minute and give us everything we wanted thereby making any planning and preparation redundant. Steely British resolve and all that.

In the end we caved on the outstanding issues and we are left pretending that there is no Irish Sea border (there is), and there would be no form filling or checks (there are) and that the deal meant, to quote Johnson, ‘there are no non tariff barriers’, which was a lie as there is now a web of administration, rules and regulations, the extent of which is slowly dawning on UK industry.

The problem with selling something with lies is that you can never come clean on the truth or prepare for the reality.
You have had a really bad day - and would be probably better of quitting for the night

That is a particularly poor post - just a mix of nonsense and your usual boring diatribe

I suggest - have a good nights sleep and try again tomorrow with some fresh material
 
Good post Rasc. In summary then, it’s because all anti-vaccers are idiots and most idiots are pro-Brexit.
I don't think they are necessarily idiots just misinformed and the victims of propaganda.

Goebbels famously said “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

If you are aware of the above and can keep an open mind when confronted with the propaganda being propagated then most people (hopefully) will see it for what it is, a lie. There are people though who will fall for it and be taken in by it. We have to look no further than what is happening in the USA at the moment to realise that is a lot of truth in Goebbels statement.

I do believe this has come about because of the education system. When you have an Education Minister like Gove who champions rote learning over critical thinking then you will end up with a population who can tell you when, but cannot explain why. It is all very well knowing for instance that on a certain date, a certain event happened, but if you cannot explain why that event happened then knowing the dates becomes superfluous. The same things happened with BREXIT in my opinion, you have a dumbed down populace who know certain things happened but don't know why they happened. This is not just a Pro-Brexit thing either , Pro-Remain was exactly the same, they both used manipulation to distort facts knowing that the lack of critical thinking would mean that there positions went unquestioned as they were related to things that the population did know, but hadn't thought about in depth because they lacked the skill of critical thinking.

When you get a debate like Brexit, the sheer enormity of it means in my opinion it is virtually impossible for a person to be totally across all the angles. They will take parts of the debate that they do know that reinforces there beliefs, they do it without questioning there beliefs because they have been taught in a rote learning fashion that, that is that.

That then leads to the tribalism, people identify with like minds, if that like mind also has a penchant for anti- vax, then that position becomes appealing to the others of like mind because of rote learning, it becomes a fact that goes unquestioned because of the lack of skills to evaluate it with critical thinking.

Of course my view may be wholly wrong and it is far simpler than that because i lack the skills to evaluate what has happened in a critical manner, because i also have my own inbuilt bias and i am not immune to being propagandised. We all have our starting points and its what we come across on the way to our end point that is important, a lot of that though will be confirmation bias. We all like t think our position is correct and will look for evidence that supports our position.

On a different note it is one of the reasons i believe referendum is poor democracy, it is wide open to manipulation due to lack of knowledge. In a representative democracy we elect people to do our thinking for us and should in an ideal world trust that those people have our best interests at heart and have the requisite skills required to make sense of complicated debates. Of course those people though are still as open as any of us to Goebbels premise
 
Ah, it ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it. Bullshit.
I will just add managing major change programmes to the list of things that you seem to know little about - but still comment on
 
Seems to be a real and growing issue. From BBC Scotland.

Rotten fish​

Scottish seafood exporters say they have been hit by a "perfect storm" of Brexit disruption, which could sink a centuries-old industry.
"These businesses are not transporting toilet rolls or widgets. They are exporting the highest quality, perishable seafood which has a finite window to get to markets in peak condition," said Donna Fordyce, chief executive of Seafood Scotland.
"If the window closes these consignments go to landfill."

She said the sector has already been weakened by Covid-19, the closure of the French border before Christmas as well as "layer upon layer" of problems associated with Brexit.
The group fears that without exports, the fishing fleet will have little reason to go out.
"In a very short time we could see the destruction of a centuries-old market which contributes significantly to the Scottish economy," added Ms Fordyce.
 
Ah, it ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it. Bullshit.
It isn't bullshit mate. Its true. I also posted from the get go that the Government needed to treat the thing as a massive change programme with all of the disciplines that brings. They didn't. At every step of the way this has been shambolic in terms of setting initial strategy, planning, design, delivery, implementation, testing. They could have brought in someone with the correct experience to oversee all of that and didn't. Having been on the front line of some of the largest retail banking mergers the UK has seen, the attention to detail to make them a success is mind blowing. The quality of leadership at every stage and level has to be best in class. Brexit got things wrong at every stage.

Anyway, enough, I am looking back instead of forward. Now about those poor bloody Scottish Lobsters....
 
I will just add managing major change programmes to the list of things that you seem to know little about - but still comment on
First question for major change programmes..... why? Second question: is it worth it? 3: can you persuade people it's worth it? 4. How will you know if it's worked? 5. If it doesn't work (most don't) do you carry the can?

I hope you weren't involved in Lansley's NHS "reforms".

It's even worse when the change has an ideological impetus (e.g. Brexit but see also the Serpell report, not implemented).

I'm not sure what counts as major, but I've been involved in promoting and delivering a big change (including designing new build with provision for adaptability if it didn't work).

And I sure know more about fish than you. (The current concerns over exports are precisely what I've been saying for a long time.)
 
Last edited:
It isn't bullshit mate. Its true. I also posted from the get go that the Government needed to treat the thing as a massive change programme with all of the disciplines that brings. They didn't. At every step of the way this has been shambolic in terms of setting initial strategy, planning, design, delivery, implementation, testing. They could have brought in someone with the correct experience to oversee all of that and didn't. Having been on the front line of some of the largest retail banking mergers the UK has seen, the attention to detail to make them a success is mind blowing. The quality of leadership at every stage and level has to be best in class. Brexit got things wrong at every stage.

Anyway, enough, I am looking back instead of forward. Now about those poor bloody Scottish Lobsters....
What's bullshit is that there was any way to make Brexit work.
 
Last edited:

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top