Political relations between UK-EU

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metalblue said:
“no deal is better than a bad deal*

*when the bad deal is worse than no deal”

Talk about stating the obvious. It was a nonsense statement really I can only imagine uttered in public to show how tough each side was being with the other.

Nail on head of the “solutions” it all seemed far enough away to talk fancifully but once you start getting into the detail they see solutions are years away from being realised.

It’s now about prioritising the problems/ barriers. The trouble is while we work through all this real people and livelihoods are suffering. So full government support for these industries is an absolute must during this time.
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No point when they cant sell / export the stuff thats made.
 
metalblue said:
“no deal is better than a bad deal*

*when the bad deal is worse than no deal”

Talk about stating the obvious. It was a nonsense statement really I can only imagine uttered in public to show how tough each side was being with the other.

Nail on head of the “solutions” it all seemed far enough away to talk fancifully but once you start getting into the detail they see solutions are years away from being realised.

It’s now about prioritising the problems/ barriers. The trouble is while we work through all this real people and livelihoods are suffering. So full government support for these industries is an absolute must during this time.
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So state aid for lots of sectors until the problems are removed. Fair enough but removing the problems means removing the non tariff barriers and aligning with N,Ireland. Solutions this government aren’t prepared to accept.
So state aid until we get a new government, can the country afford it on top of all the covid aid ?
 
Vic said:
Do you think the EU invented discarding?
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Of what? Fish? No idea never bothered to check if it existed before or anywhere else in the world.

But discards aren’t really the point here nor why I picked up on your post ...so to back up; you asserted that you thought it was a barrier to fisherman claiming the compensation when you wrote “So if your boat is not going out because it's likely the catch will have to be thrown away”

Whilst I understand the foley you are highlighting I was merely saying it wasn’t a new concept for fishermen and that making them prove losses wasn’t unreasonable. Perhaps the government could have used last 3 years average catch profit for each boat (we have evidence) and forced boats to remain docked? That’s probably not a good solution either. Anyway if you have other ways for this to happen I’m all ears but let’s not go down rabbit holes here.
 
blueparrot said:
So state aid for lots of sectors until the problems are removed. Fair enough but removing the problems means removing the non tariff barriers and aligning with N,Ireland. Solutions this government aren’t prepared to accept.
So state aid until we get a new government, can the country afford it on top of all the covid aid ?
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It would be interesting to see how state aid compares with EU “grants” for same industries.

I suppose the simple answer to your question is so long as, annually, the aid required is less than we were paying to the EU it’s a win for the UK taxpayer.

That said it would of course be a lot better if we can just sort the problems out :)
 
metalblue said:
It would be interesting to see how state aid compares with EU “grants” for same industries.

I suppose the simple answer to your question is so long as, annually, the aid required is less than we were paying to the EU it’s a win for the UK taxpayer.

That said it would of course be a lot better if we can just sort the problems out :)
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However this is another myth .... State Aid is allowed under Eu rules as long as it is for economic development and not to give an industry a competitive advantage. (See Italys bail out of its steel industry and the Netherlands development of rail infrastructure)

You were lied to
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Then theres no point in being a member ...... if you honestly think they're going to do that you need help.
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I am afraid thats classic Leave bullshit...... " just remove them and Bobs your uncle" - same as "UK supermarkets need to sell more UK shellfish to fix the problem" or "German car makers will sort this out" - simple sloganeering with not a thought as to the how why and where you make any of it happen nor the ramifications.

As a Remainer I wanted to stay - I wouldn't even begin to advocate Rejoin at this moment in time because what we had was the best we could have hoped for and thats now gone for good.
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Then theres no point in being a member ...... if you honestly think they're going to do that you need help.
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Let’s break this down to the brass tacks.


Countries/trading blocs have two mechanisms available to them

The first is tariffs. This is designed to ensure goods coming in are more expensive than domestically produced so consumers buy your domestic product. There are some general rules about tariffs such as they can’t be worse than WTO terms. The UK will have tariffs in place.

The second is standards. These are to ensure that the goods coming in are of equivalence (so sub standard products cannot be made cheaper). Whilst vital these can be very subjective in nature such as saying a component made in India is inferior to one made in Spain due to less rigerous national rules (it would ignore standards demanded in the supply contract for example - this inhibits growth in developing economies but that’s a different conversation). Additionally they can be used to allow for the creation of rules that make it uneconomical for an exporter to comply with, but again you’d only want to do that if you had sufficient domestic product. These rules will also govern things like origin of parts and the such (again to prevent cheaper components being used). The UK will also have standards in place.

Beyond product safety. The primary loser in all of this is the consumer.

So against those two levers we have shellfish issue. Putting aside that the UK claim they were told it would be ok for a moment let us look at the mechanics. The EU have standards in place that quite probably favoured UK shell fishers for many years (ie prevented cheaper imports from elsewhere in the globe) that we now are to comply with. This will increase our costs which will be passed on to the EU purchaser making our shellfish as expensive as anyone else’s. The only benefit for UK shellfish would be geography. So the benefits to being a member when it comes to trading with other EU states are clear, they are on the inside of the protection ring as the UK was, in this example however it doesn’t inhibit our ability to export once we comply with the rules.


So when you say
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
No point when they cant sell / export the stuff thats made.
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We clearly can. Unless your recommending chucking the baby out with the bath water due to some issues with shellfish that will get resolved?
 
metalblue said:
So against those two levers we have shellfish issue. Putting aside that the UK claim they were told it would be ok for a moment let us look at the mechanics. The EU have standards in place that quite probably favoured UK shell fishers for many years (ie prevented cheaper imports from elsewhere in the globe) that we now are to comply with. This will increase our costs which will be passed on to the EU purchaser making our shellfish as expensive as anyone else’s. The only benefit for UK shellfish would be geography. So the benefits to being a member when it comes to trading with other EU states are clear, they are on the inside of the protection ring as the UK was, in this example however it doesn’t inhibit our ability to export once we comply with the rules.
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There you go again - just a few words problem solved. Have a look at the rules WE helped to write and research Class A and Class B waters then let us know how we fix the seawater.
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
However this is another myth .... State Aid is allowed under Eu rules as long as it is for economic development and not to give an industry a competitive advantage. (See Italys bail out of its steel industry and the Netherlands development of rail infrastructure)

You were lied to
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You literally haven’t understood a word I posted or have disingenuously decided to switch the debate to something else.

Let me try again:

The UK contributed more to being an EU member than it received in return grants. This is a well accepted fact. The only question I posed was if the amount we need to bail industry out who are struggling under Brexit would exceed that.

Rather than try and re-debate 2016 we could try and address that question.
 
bluethrunthru said:
There you go again - just a few words problem solved. Have a look at the rules WE helped to write and research Class A and Class B waters then let us know how we fix the seawater.
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The easiest solution would be for the EU to standby what they originally said failing that the next would be purify before export - thus increasing costs as stated in my response. That would overcome the barrier.

Why is it so hard for you to accept there are solutions here?
 
metalblue said:
The easiest solution would be for the EU to standby what they originally said failing that the next would be purify before export - thus increasing costs as stated in my response. That would overcome the barrier.

Why is it so hard for you to accept there are solutions here?
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we are back to "whats the point in being a member" then. They let unpurified shellfish from Class B waters in then why not unpurified shellfish from class B waters from any other non-member state?

You leave the club you leave behind the benefits - even those you rigged in your favour. I see Leave are still in denial and think that its unreasonable to be denied using the pool at the gym simply on the grounds that you have left and stopped paying subs.

why can't you accept that the solution you seek is to trade our shellfish with the rest of the world as Brexit promised we would?
 
bluethrunthru said:
we are back to "whats the point in being a member" then. They let unpurified shellfish from Class B waters in then why not unpurified shellfish from class B waters from any other non-member state?

You leave the club you leave behind the benefits - even those you rigged in your favour. I see Leave are still in denial and think that its unreasonable to be denied using the pool at the gym simply on the grounds that you have left and stopped paying subs.

why can't you accept that the solution you seek is to trade our shellfish with the rest of the world as Brexit promised we would?
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There are two issues at play here. The first is on being outside the EU, we have to follow rules that weren’t explicitly negotiated in the trade deal. That’s a given. Now people on both sides of the debate argued how much we would be able to negotiate (leave) or how little (remain). Some of the most vocal commentators on both sides have been proven very wrong.

The second issue and the only reason I question the stance on UK exports of shellfish is we were told it would be ok. But nonetheless there are at least solutions to this particular problem.

To your last point. If I stood here and said the answer would simply be to export the 70% we used to export to EU to other countries I’d be rightly laughed at. Of course longer term we should be looking to broaden our trading partners for a variety of our product but that takes time (years) to run up.
 
metalblue said:
There are two issues at play here. The first is on being outside the EU, we have to follow rules that weren’t explicitly negotiated in the trade deal. That’s a given. Now people on both sides of the debate argued how much we would be able to negotiate (leave) or how little (remain). Some of the most vocal commentators on both sides have been proven very wrong.

The second issue and the only reason I question the stance on UK exports of shellfish is we were told it would be ok. But nonetheless there are at least solutions to this particular problem.

To your last point. If I stood here and said the answer would simply be to export the 70% we used to export to EU to other countries I’d be rightly laughed at. Of course longer term we should be looking to broaden our trading partners for a variety of our product but that takes time (years) to run up.
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The one thing in play here over the export of shellfish is the amateur approach of Frosty the Showman and his so called team of professional negotiators. To just assume a letter passed to you in 2019 BEFORE the UK left and entered the transition period where you then negotiate a trade deal forgetting to include in said deal what you thought was a binding commitment in the agreement is beyond amateur - we will be assuming trade rules with China were implicitly implied in a take-away delivery menu stuck onto the fridge door next.

The fact that it was never raised in the negotiations indicates they probably didn't bring it up as a refusal would have been awkward.
 
metalblue said:
Of what? Fish? No idea never bothered to check if it existed before or anywhere else in the world.

But discards aren’t really the point here nor why I picked up on your post ...so to back up; you asserted that you thought it was a barrier to fisherman claiming the compensation when you wrote “So if your boat is not going out because it's likely the catch will have to be thrown away”

Whilst I understand the foley you are highlighting I was merely saying it wasn’t a new concept for fishermen and that making them prove losses wasn’t unreasonable. Perhaps the government could have used last 3 years average catch profit for each boat (we have evidence) and forced boats to remain docked? That’s probably not a good solution either. Anyway if you have other ways for this to happen I’m all ears but let’s not go down rabbit holes here.
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You made an irrelevant link to the CFP. It's your rabbit hole. No-one ever went fishing to fill the boat with unsellable fish yet that's the implication of the new fund criteria.
 
metalblue said:
There are two issues at play here. The first is on being outside the EU, we have to follow rules that weren’t explicitly negotiated in the trade deal. That’s a given. Now people on both sides of the debate argued how much we would be able to negotiate (leave) or how little (remain). Some of the most vocal commentators on both sides have been proven very wrong.

The second issue and the only reason I question the stance on UK exports of shellfish is we were told it would be ok. But nonetheless there are at least solutions to this particular problem.

To your last point. If I stood here and said the answer would simply be to export the 70% we used to export to EU to other countries I’d be rightly laughed at. Of course longer term we should be looking to broaden our trading partners for a variety of our product but that takes time (years) to run up.
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Is there a letter? It's not been published yet, has it?
 
metalblue said:
You literally haven’t understood a word I posted or have disingenuously decided to switch the debate to something else.

Let me try again:

The UK contributed more to being an EU member than it received in return grants. This is a well accepted fact. The only question I posed was if the amount we need to bail industry out who are struggling under Brexit would exceed that.

Rather than try and re-debate 2016 we could try and address that question.
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Why is that relevant?
The roughly £9 billion saved by not being a member is spoken for about five times over to fully fund the regulatory agencies needed to replace the shared EU ones, the additional customs infrastructure and running costs, the IT systems and manning for all the new bureaucracy and not forgetting the additional £300m per week for the NHS.
 
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