Post Match Thread: Election 2017

[The perfect fumble]

I know you hark back to the days of the masses of unskilled workers and union power mate. Perhaps we should reopen the mines. Actually lets not go there, I fear I may know your answer.

You have all the answers Chippy boy, you just keep them to yourself.

 

[dave_blue12]

That would have been about 60 more seats mate.

No, sometimes winning is a poison chalice and I think that is where the Tories are right now.

Corbyn just needs to bide his time and keep doing what he has been doing.

 

[The perfect fumble]

No, sometimes winning is a poison chalice and I think that is where the stories are right now.

Corbyn just needs to bide his time and keep doing what he has been doing.

Yep, the old adage that oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them is still true and this government has fail written all over it.

 

[Bluemanc100]

It's as easy as abc

Anyone But Corbyn.

It's no good mobilising the left if at the same time you alienate the right. He does the first part great, but will never solve the latter. The Labour leader needs to set out a stall that appeals to the moderate conservative. Corbyn never can.

Bang on.... pity the people that elected him don't get it

I was told to butt out by a party member here yesterday but they surely need to wake up and smell the coffee to be seen as a credible (electable) alternative to the shower we now have colluding with wrong 'uns

 

[The perfect fumble]

Bang on.... pity the people that elected him don't get it

I was told to butt out by a party member here yesterday but they surely need to wake up and smell the coffee to be seen as a credible (electable) alternative to the shower we now have colluding with wrong 'uns

The Labour party is supposed to be a broad church, why is that everything is tickety-boo when it's led by the right, but not by the left?

 

[SWP's back]

No, sometimes winning is a poison chalice and I think that is where the Tories are right now.

Corbyn just needs to bide his time and keep doing what he has been doing.

Nope. There's no chance that Corbyn wins yesterday and you say "that's a shame, it's a posioned chalice that."

I don't believe you for a second.

 

[SWP's back]

The Labour party is supposed to be a broad church, why is that everything is tickety-boo when it's led by the right, but not by the left?

Damocles has explained that several times.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Damocles has explained that several times.

To your satisfaction no doubt.

 

[Bluemanc100]

The Labour party is supposed to be a broad church, why is that everything is tickety-boo when it's led by the right, but not by the left?

The guy at the helm is a changeling... he is pretending to be something he simply isn't and that's why he isn't (and probably will never be) PM..

It's a crying shame that a credible leader wasn't sanctioned because the alternative party are now taking us up the creek

Should Corbyn have fallen on his own sword when many in your own party were casting doubts on his capability... he is arguably as guilty as May for not taking that opportunity.. maybe he thinks he is bigger than the party (or others do)

 

[dave_blue12]

Nope. There's no chance that Corbyn wins yesterday and you say "that's a shame, it's a posioned chalice that."

I don't believe you for a second.

I don't give a flying f*** what you believe.

I'm happy with the outcome and am looking forward to the Tories tearing themselves apart.

Stalking horse anyone ?

 

[Chippy_boy]

Bang on.... pity the people that elected him don't get it

I was told to butt out by a party member here yesterday but they surely need to wake up and smell the coffee to be seen as a credible (electable) alternative to the shower we now have colluding with wrong 'uns

You'd have won on Thursday mate, we a more moderate leader. When you think about it, governments very very rarely survive a 2nd re-election. Off hand I can only think of Thatcher and Blair who managed it. And to do so, you have to be bloody excellent and/or your opponents in a total mess.

I don't think this government has been bloody excellent, and their campaign was bloody awful. (understatement) They should and would in all normal circumstances, have lost.

 

[Chippy_boy]

You have all the answers Chippy boy, you just keep them to yourself.

Ah, reverting to type I see. When the argument fails, just throw in a snidey little insult, hoping to get it past the mods. Try an inane picture next eh.

 

[SWP's back]

To your satisfaction no doubt.

And not yours? He's a dyed in the wool Labour voter and so far you've not actually debated with him on the point that being in power is better than running a 'movement'.

 

[SWP's back]

I don't give a flying f*** what you believe.

I'm happy with the outcome and am looking forward to the Tories tearing themselves apart.

Stalking horse anyone ?

What you're doing is lying.

Corbyn wins yesterday and you're really saying that you'd be on here today bemoaning the fact?

That's bullshit. You and I both know it but you've painted yourself into a corner now I've called you out on it.

 

[BlueAnorak]

I have to say, It really is laughable to suggest that the DUP are 'terrorists in the same way that Sinn Fein were/are.
Just some straightforward research will tell you that The DUP has always totally condemned any sort of terrorism which should be met by the full force of the law.
Both Ian Paisley and his son would have gone ballistic at the thought of illegally killing anyone. As does the current party leadership.
Yes the party had links with the UDA but only in thes same way that the British Government has back-channels to the UDA/UFF and IRA. Indeed any DUP member found dealing will illegal UDA/UFF activity is expelled from the party.

If you read up on the DUP you will find that it is pretty much is the UKIP of Northern Ireland with added Protestant fundamentalism.

 

[The perfect fumble]

The guy at the helm is a changeling... he is pretending to be something he simply isn't and that's why he isn't (and probably will never be) PM..

It's a crying shame that a credible leader wasn't sanctioned because the alternative party are now taking us up the creek

Should Corbyn have fallen on his own sword when many in your own party were casting doubts on his capability... he is arguably as guilty as May for not taking that opportunity.. maybe he thinks he is bigger than the party (or others do)

Do I need to remind you how he became the leader, on two occasions?

 

[goalmole]

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound condescending. What in particular makes that your gut feeling?

I think people have been conned into thinking what other people tell them they should think. They have been told that if we ask those who can afford it to pay a bit more tax then they are going to up sticks and leave turning this country into a wasteland. I personally know of people living on minimum wages on a council estate but who choose to vote Tory. Talk of turkeys voting for Christmas. You couldn't make it up. The power of propaganda can't be underestimated. It has come to the point where anyone who speaks up openly for the needs of the downtrodden is labelled as some kind of Marxist Leninist throwback(Corbyn) to be ridiculed for following an outdated and discredited creed. The accepted and acceptable creed being that of the middle and upper middle classes, namely that everybody should be able to make a better life for themselves by pulling up their bootstraps and working hard. While this is an admirable stance, ( I'm self employed and do quite well for myself and I'm quite ambitious for my children) not everyone is in a position to adequately fend for themselves. It should be a function of the state to ensure basic needs are adequately met for the population at large and not just provide a bare, grudging minimum of services by constantly clawing away and under mining funding. We are one of the richest countries in the world and we can afford it. The problem is ideologically since Mrs Thatcher we choose not to. It's a question of priorities. People have been conditioned to think that is the way it is and that is the way it has to be. This message has been put out by politicians and reinforced by the right wing media and people have nought into it. This is why you get people protesting about A and E closures and then going out and voting Tory.
Well it doesn't have to be that way.
What is needed is someone to slay this dragon. People need understand that public services are fundable without the sky falling in. Do we want to carry on making the rich richer or do we want to give our people the best life we can. While the working class has capitulated in it's struggle of making life better for the weak, the Tories have kept up their's, at the same time co opting us into helping them in the name of social mobility.
I just think Corbyn might finally be the man to connect with people to change their thinking and fight for their own interests rather than being wannabe Tories, hoping for social mobility and leaving behind the vulnerable and needy to fend for themselves the best they can. That you can't expect people who have been born into wealth and never experienced hardship to know what hardship feels like and therefore to sympathise and alleviate yours.
I know what I am saying may be the triumph of hope over expectation but I hope Corbyn is that man and I hope he succeeds.
If he fails I'll just go back onto my pit of despair for the future of the working class people of this country.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

From afar, Britain appears to have fallen for the same schtick as American voters, even those who have little to nothing to gain from the policies for which they vote. My parents were somewhat the same...Mum voted Labour, Dad Conservative. She knew which side her bread was buttered and who party had anything of worth for the family, while Dad aspired to be someone who would one day have more.

When I look at Britain today, Manchester is not nearly as representative of the general belief that upward mobility is not only possible but achievable, and possibly within easy reach for some who feel like they are already on at least a lower rung of the economic ladder. I see it even on this Forum, between those that are doing halfway decently and those that are perhaps not doing as well.

The sentiment in identity politics today appears to have been successful for the Right, identifying those on the Left as moochers and people looking for a handout, who are reliant on the state to have anything or make anything of themselves, while the Right are self reliant, aspirational rugged individuals who have worked hard to get themselves ahead and deserve all the success they have achieved, because they achieved it themselves. They deserve to keep more of that hard earned money through lower taxes, which the Left want to pay for all their services and benefits.

Now, as a population, who wants to be identified as "Right or Left" in those caricaturish depictions? In America, even those who might more accurately fit the mold of the Left often vote Right, because they simply don't identify themselves as Left, all evidence to the contrary, because they are taught to see themselves (and definitely prefer to identify themselves) as the rugged, self reliant, individualist of the Right. Indeed, the Southern Tier states of the U.S. take vastly greater sums of Federal monies into their states than they contribute to the Federal coffers. Ironically, it is those "Blue" Leftie urban centers and states that contribute the vast majority of Federal dollars to those states full of "rugged individualists!"

In short, the propaganda of self-reliance, as if everyone has the choice given their circumstances, has tried to portray anyone requiring state aid, no matter how briefly or necessary, as a weight around the neck of the country and those who are working so hard to create their own futures. It is cynical in the extreme, but it plays to people who see themselves as good citizens who contribute to the betterment of society, even if it is actually them it is often negatively portraying.

There are no easy answers to societal problems, but when politics seeks to stratify people and pit them against each other, it will always be those who have (and have the most) who will continue to gain at the expense of those they have divided into factions fighting each other. Without the consensus politics required to corral, control and even negate such cynical politics, those with all the advantages will simply milk those advantages to the fullest extent possible for as long as possible, further widening the gap and exacerbating the underlying problem.

 

[The perfect fumble]

And not yours? He's a dyed in the wool Labour voter and so far you've not actually debated with him on the point that being in power is better than running a 'movement'.

Just because you think something is so, does not make it so and repeating it over and over again does not bolster its validity.

Corbyn is the leader of the Labour party, elected by its members in two leadership elections in the last two years, you don't get more legitimate a leader of a political party than that.

 

[Bluemanc100]

Do I need to remind you how he became the leader, on two occasions?

You don't but it was clearly flawed logic to appoint him once let alone twice... It seems you don't agree though... it's fine to be principled but what's the point ... you needed Chuka or the other Milliband brother who would likely have got in