President Joe Biden

[Bigga]

Revolutionary socialists believe that the working class is a sleeping giant that must be convulsed to awaken and shrug off their oppressor, this can only be achieved by violent revolution, and creeping fascism under Trump is a potential catalyst.

For those kind of revolutionaries, the continuation of the republic is the worst possible outcome.

But these people are few in number and hopelessly on the margin, they're a spectre used by Trump and a very useful spectre they are too, as it's all he's got, but in reality, in political terms, they're small potatoes.

As for the Bernie Sanders supporters, both in the Democrat Party and beyond? My opinion and that's all it is, is that some, almost certainly most, will vote for Biden to kick Trump out, for the reasons I outlined in my previous post, but some won't, and those that won't deserve to be heard and not dismissed, because they have legitimate reasons for doing so.

And this is the crux of the matter.

There are people looking to voter shame people into voting a certain way.

If you're dismissive of Green concerns, you're no different to #45. Why should they vote for you?

If you're not offering Black people and Black businesses a better life experience in line with their counterparts, you're no different than #45. Why should they vote for you?

If you're not offering M4A as a legitimate way forward, you're no different to #45. Why should they vote for you?

The main argument is that #45 wants to stay in office beyond the current constitution terms. If nothing changed before, nothing's changed now then people would accept the same in the future, so why should they vote for you?

Bailouts under #45? Obama did that.

Deportations under #45? Obama was '"The Chief".

Bombings under #45? Obama did that.

Wars under #45? Obama went from 2 to 7.

Police killings and protests under #45? Happened under Obama.

All these things and more have consequences. Campaign promises are campaign lies. Same neck with different heads.

A smiley neolib and a frowny neolib are... still neolibs.

 

[Bigga]

Too late for that. We’re at Mussolini now. Time to think again when Mussolini’s gone.

Fucking hell.

Another not listening.

 

[Bigga]

And my point, among others, is that this is not an academic exercise for the vast majority of those living in America.

There are real consequences to real people stemming from what occurs over the next few months and anyone acting to increase the chances of Trump getting a second (and likely last) ‘presidential’ term because they fill “disenfranchised” are likely among those that will not have to deal with those consequences.

Or are too belligerent, ignorant, or stupid to be aware of the consequences, which ironically includes many Trump supporters (who will experience subjugation and hardship themselves).

Honestly, I didn't expect you to scoff at people who have experienced no aid to their circumstances, in real terms, finally shrugging their shoulders.

This is like people banging and shouting up against the window about the smoke coming up the street and having a finger held up to them "Yes, wait a minute whilst I deal with this very important chess move in front of me. No, I need to think about the bigger move!".

Finally the fire arrives, you put your finger down and you're like "Hey guys, there's a fire and my chess board's gonna burn!".

It's not 'ignorant' people, they're not 'belligerent' and they're not 'stupid'. You've failed to listen to them in the first place and it looks like this is happening again.

Again, some people want to deal with the 'fire' and ignore how the 'fire' started. Sometimes fires happen and you investigate and deal with it. You don't ignore it.

Does anybody understand fire prevention on this board...?

 

[Bigga]

I will not contest the fact that many groups, including black Americans, do not feel that either party has done or is doing enough for them. Even as a relative outsider, from my observations and readings, I believe that to be generally true. And I think many of us have not only acknowledged that, but have discussed that state and the potential reasons/implications, including the very rise of Trump fascism in America.

And I understand that the Biden thread is obviously where you and many others will post criticism of Biden. Again, I and many others have done that, too.

I just do not understand the seeming opposition to the reality of Biden being the only viable, non-destructive choice in the current situation. And even if most Americans do choose him it may not be enough because of the Trump regime’s widespread efforts to subvert the election. No one — apart from the Trump regime, his plutocratic backers, and foreign supporters/controllers (not even really his domestic supporters, even if they aren’t aware of it) is benefited by any action or argument that increase the chances of Trump remaining in office past January.

I will say this, though: I would not put ANY faith in any promises or plans the Trump regime announce to help anyone but Trump. And I have talked to many Americans, including black Americans, that hold that same view. They are nearly always empty or highly exaggerated promises that are never realised for the sole purpose of winning temporary support for a specific end goal, in this case re-election (if you can really even call it that).


Yes, I didn’t say it was just let in.

But I think we both agree the ‘entry’ situation isn’t going to be dealt with by the destruction of the American democratic republic.

But I will leave it there, as we are obviously in a circular discussion with no hope of exiting the loop at this point.

All your points valid.

You're, at least, encompassing of the path to the door as it stands. That makes a difference.

With all said and done and if lies had no been spoken and echoed by MSM, then Biden would clearly NOT be "the only *viable, non-destructive choice in the current situation". His was a manufactured effort from top tier Dem leadership, the donor class and MSM.

He wasn't on the radar for ordinary people before he got involved and the MSM talked him up before he even ran.

*Note that when Biden tells the poor he will help them but not give M4A and corporations nothing will change for them, that's already an untenable lie to work with in 4 years.

 

[Bigga]

A continued chance for change, as opposed to no chance for change *and* even more hardship and suffering for more people, many of which, as you alluded to, have had to bear it for quite some time already.

I just do not understand the argument that a fully entrenched and emboldened Trump regime, which likely ends real elections and any democratic process at the national level whatsoever, is a better alternative to the continuation of a flawed democratic republican system that allows for at least the possibility of a real progressive movement to achieve better outcomes. Or the argument that other people’s increased suffering is a sacrifice someone that does not have to experience said suffering is willing to make to see real change.

But, again, we are in a circular discussion, so I think it is best we let it go, mate.

Before we do, I'll offer this last opinion to your post.

IF #45 won and pressed forward with that resolve, the country would grind to a halt. That would be mass strikes and the economy would cease to function as nobody would invest in the US.

This alone, would force the ejection of #45 from his own party, corporations(ironically, they are profit driven) and voters. #45 is merely injecting fear into the MSM as he likes to see them quiver.

Anyway, I shall agree to park this conversation here.

 

[Bigga]

Oh but you do....

As you do too.

But I don't want @The perfect fumble to go through the same shit as I have on here.

 

[cjn]

I just want to point out that Biden has the overwhelming support of the party, including progressives. The idea that there are a significant amount of holdouts for any of these high minded ideological reasons is basically made up. This argument was already had and decided months ago.

When Biden wins we can go back to ignoring people like Bigga and working with progressives who are actually interested in getting things done.

 

[Bigga]

Anyway, since 99% of you don't listen to Black media, try just 'some' Progressive media and what it's up against

 

[Bigga]

I see cjn doesn't know when to stop being a Dem/ MSM shill.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Honestly, I didn't expect you to scoff at people who have experienced no aid to their circumstances, in real terms, finally shrugging their shoulders.

This is like people banging and shouting up against the window about the smoke coming up the street and having a finger held up to them "Yes, wait a minute whilst I deal with this very important chess move in front of me. No, I need to think about the bigger move!".

Finally the fire arrives, you put your finger down and you're like "Hey guys, there's a fire and my chess board's gonna burn!".

It's not 'ignorant' people, they're not 'belligerent' and they're not 'stupid'. You've failed to listen to them in the first place and it looks like this is happening again.

Again, some people want to deal with the 'fire' and ignore how the 'fire' started. Sometimes fires happen and you investigate and deal with it. You don't ignore it.

Does anybody understand fire prevention on this board...?

I said it includes “many Trump supporters”.

And are you are saying people that support a snake oil salesman that cares not about them; a parasite who is literally siphoning off their wealth, health, and wellbeing for his own gain, are not acting with belligerence, ignorance, or stupidity? That they prefer that? They actually rationally determined they want that?

Your argument is that it has been happening for awhile, fair enough. I agree there. But it seems as though, by extension, your greater assertion is that it’s good that Trump is doing it. Given that it is very, very likely to get worse for all of those people that have already suffered it under an emboldened Trump regime, I don’t understand the logic of saying Trump and Biden are exactly the same? Are you saying that suffering *should* continue unabated (which would absolutely happen under Trump)? Or that such continuation of Trump’s regime is likely to produce change that will *not* come at a tragic human cost before, during, and after any such possible struggle.

And I am taken aback by your fire analogy, not only because it is especially ironic given the situation in the US (and Trump’s response to it), but also because it seems to miss the fact that allowing Trump to entrench himself is likely to be the fire to end all fires. His blaze is likely to see no more fuel for any future fire (whether fascist or progressive) or much of anything else.

To continue your analogy, your argument is seemingly for breaking off from fighting a wild fire that is consuming your city in order to gather in the central park for review and debate about what caused it. I don’t think anyone currently active in this thread is arguing that America (and, indeed the UK), should not undergo a self-examination and earnest investigation leading to the development of new plans for mitigation, reparation, and progression toward a thriving society, but that comes after you put out the fire when *all* resources and effort are currently required to extinguish it.

I think the issue you and I have is that we fundamentally disagree about the levels of suffering that would be seen under Trump vs Biden. You seem — and correct me if I am wrong — to believe that most people will suffer in the same way, to the same degree, under Biden as they would under Trump. Or under any following presidential administration after Biden (again, it is very likely there will be no presidential administrations after Trump if he is not stopped).

I believe the suffering will increase, both in breadth and scope, under Trump. *AND* that there is a much, much lower chance of any progressive movement taking hold to mitigate or eliminate that suffering, in the short- or medium-term than under Biden or a following administration.

I also do not believe he will be “ejected” in the way you have described in another post. Perhaps eventually, but again, only at a great human cost that is completely unnecessary in the context of having a better alternative in electing Biden to allow for a modicum of stability and corrective action for four years before sweeping in a more progressive candidate with a significantly more ambitious agenda once the political will has truly been mustered and the base for such development has been built under Biden (there is *so* much that must be undone from Trump’s time to simply return the government to a state where it can actually function, much less can improve).

For this reason, I think we may really need to move on from our specific discussion, because whilst we disagree on this, we will never agree on the implications of Biden vs Trump.