President Joe Biden

[inbetween]

Just so FogBlue.

Perhaps I could see a 2020 vote in favor of Trump - barely.

But now, following the 1/6 Capitol invasion, and the subsequent evidence that this and many other actions driven by Trump in an illegal attempt to remain in office at any cost (nearly so - he could have invoked the insurrection act and probably would have if he thought he could get away with it)...

Given all of this - any vote/support for Trump or for the party which he still controls - is a vote against Democracy - and is inexcusable among an informed electorate. To be sure though, I think that much of Trump's popularity owes to the misinformation stream coming out of Fox News and other outlets, to the point where the majority of Republicans somehow believe that the most fair and accurate election in American history was somehow rigged in favor of Biden.

And as you point out - it's one thing to disagree with Democratic policy and to support Republican policy. I've no problem at all with this.

But Republicans have crossed the line. The party - under Trump's control - no longer believes in Democracy at all. The party is all about getting its way no matter what - and those that oppose their views are variously misinformed, anti-American, or part of a devil worshiping cabal engaging in blood rites while practising pedophilia in pizza outlet basements... oh, and lest I forget, Jewish Space Lasers!

How on earth did a, "Jewish Space Laser" believer attain office in the US congress?

I think to say that this is purely down to misinformation is missing the point. Most people subscribe to misinformation because it's silently what they want to hear as opposed to some unwilful engagement in misinformed 'truth'. This is the error that many on here make, they assume the media spoon feeds people their politics and they are too stupid to realise it but actually people are far more intelligent and deliberate than that.

Trump said he'd build a wall between Mexico and the US, he failed to do so. The idea that he'd do such a thing is what won him votes and not the reality of whether he'd do it. The reality of our politics today is no-one gives a shit about whether their brand of politics and its policies are even feasible. All they care about is the idea and they'll subscribe to anyone who thinks like they do. Nigel Farage has done exceptionally well as a politician in the UK for this exact reason.

It's actually very similar in the UK, many people liked the idea of Brexit and they liked the idea of an independent UK doing its thing in the world. The end reality has been completely different but still the likes of the Tories command considerable support despite being responsible for constant scandal, incompetence and total policy failures. The only reason why they are still in power is unlike others they supported and still support Brexit.

When the US comes to elect its next president then the exact same war will be fought, not for information or truth but for ideology. Trump will say alsorts of rubbish and make promises that will never happen but everyone will apparently know where he stands and that's a very powerful position.

The biggest issue that the Democrats have regardless of candidate is where do they stand? At the last election they stood nowhere, their only position was they had a candidate who wasn't Trump and will that approach be as effective next time? Biden has been almost absent since he won, I have no idea what he's done in the US for better or worse. Success should be easy to broadcast but that doesn't seem to be the case because maybe there isn't any?

 

[domalino]

The biggest issue that the Democrats have regardless of candidate is where do they stand? At the last election they stood nowhere, their only position was they had a candidate who wasn't Trump and will that approach be as effective next time?

The irony of this is... The Republican's haven't even posted a manifesto since 2015. They have no policies except reverse anything the Democrats do.

The Democrats for all their sins have a massive laundry list of things they want to do, but can't without a few more senate seats.

 

[inbetween]

The irony of this is... The Republican's haven't even posted a manifesto since 2015. They have no policies except reverse anything the Democrats do.

The Democrats for all their sins have a massive laundry list of things they want to do, but can't without a few more senate seats.

Gone are the days where politicians produced a list of things they wanted to do and you decided which one you liked the sound of most. It's actually quite refreshing in a way because I don't think any party in history in any country has ever made a manifesto and kept to it. Call me a political cynic but this just goes to prove how pointless and ineffectual politics and politicians really are.

Nowadays it's all about issues and no-one cares about solutions. Look at our current government in the UK, if they're the solution then wtf was the question? Labour changed their leader two years ago and the only thing they have cobbled together since in response to the worst government perhaps in history is whatever is the opposite to that government.

It's the same in the US, the Democrats are now just a warped anti-party of the Trump-led Republicans where the Republicans are mainly only interested in gaining power to cream off taxpayers cash and organise the country to benefit their shareholdings.

Basically it doesn't really matter who you vote for anymore, there's a very strong chance that you aren't going to get anything good out of it. Case in point on this is 80m voted for Biden so as to not get Trump. The reality of that is the first act of Biden's presidency was to follow on his promise to cancel the Keystone XL and increase petrol prices on Americans at the beginning of the most volatile natural resource/commodities market in history.

 

[domalino]

It's the same in the US, the Democrats are now just a warped anti-party of the Trump-led Republicans where the Republicans are mainly interested in creaming off taxpayers cash and organising the country to benefit their shareholdings.

…Yeah that’s just bullshit. It’s just not true, I don’t know how to engage with it.

The democrats do have a list of policies they want to enact. These are completely unrelated to the Republican Party, some of them are in line with many of the non-extreme Republicans.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

I think to say that this is purely down to misinformation is missing the point. Most people subscribe to misinformation because it's silently what they want to hear as opposed to some unwilful engagement in misinformed 'truth'. This is the error that many on here make, they assume the media spoon feeds people their politics and they are too stupid to realise it but actually people are far more intelligent and deliberate than that.

Trump said he'd build a wall between Mexico and the US, he failed to do so. The idea that he'd do such a thing is what won him votes and not the reality of whether he'd do it. The reality of our politics today is no-one gives a shit about whether their brand of politics and its policies are even feasible. All they care about is the idea and they'll subscribe to anyone who thinks like they do. Nigel Farage has done exceptionally well as a politician in the UK for this exact reason.

It's actually very similar in the UK, many people liked the idea of Brexit and they liked the idea of an independent UK doing its thing in the world. The end reality has been completely different but still the likes of the Tories command considerable support despite being responsible for constant scandal, incompetence and total policy failures. The only reason why they are still in power is unlike others they supported and still support Brexit.

When the US comes to elect its next president then the exact same war will be fought, not for information or truth but for ideology. Trump will say alsorts of rubbish and make promises that will never happen but everyone will apparently know where he stands and that's a very powerful position.

The biggest issue that the Democrats have regardless of candidate is where do they stand? At the last election they stood nowhere, their only position was they had a candidate who wasn't Trump and will that approach be as effective next time? Biden has been almost absent since he won, I have no idea what he's done in the US for better or worse. Success should be easy to broadcast but that doesn't seem to be the case because maybe there isn't any?

In general, I agree with many of these sentiments and they're well-expressed . . . . but the last two sentences either totally undermine OR completely prove (dependent on how much work you've done) everything you said before them! :)

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

…Yeah that’s just bullshit. It’s just not true, I don’t know how to engage with it.

The democrats do have a list of policies they want to enact. These are completely unrelated to the Republican Party, some of them are in line with many of the non-extreme Republicans.

Is there any point in doing it at all?

He is clearly one of the nihilistic "just the same" bunch.

As if any party could implement all of their own manifesto without pushback from rebels and lobbyists or coming up against restrictions imposed by unforeseen events.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

…Yeah that’s just bullshit. It’s just not true, I don’t know how to engage with it.

The democrats do have a list of policies they want to enact. These are completely unrelated to the Republican Party, some of them are in line with many of the non-extreme Republicans.

Agreed -- the extreme move of Republicans to a cult of personality has shifted moderates to the Democratic party while at the same time the Progressive wing of the party has gained power and influence (reflecting the sentiments of coastal Millennials). So the Democratic tent is much expanded in size AND in spectrum, making "platform" a much harder thing to reach consensus on. The irony is semi-moderate non-cult Republicans have been marginalized and are homeless -- i.e. Reagan conservatives.

In theory -- I said theory -- we are as close to the creation of a viable 3rd party as the nation has been in my lifetime. Wallace and Perot were cults of personality too (as was Roosevelt's Bull Moose party) -- in this case I could see a Trumpian cult party (current Republicans), a moderate party (centrist Democrats and disaffected Republicans) and a Progressive party.

 

[inbetween]

Is there any point in doing it at all?

He is clearly one of the nihilistic "just the same" bunch.

As if any party could implement all of their own manifesto without pushback from rebels and lobbyists or coming up against restrictions imposed by unforeseen events.

I am indeed politically nihilistic, I think that politics fails us constantly because here we are in threads arguing about which is the best but in reality the least worst option. This has resulted in politics moving over the last few years closer to its most self-destructive and violent point for a very long time. The fact that this is happening on both sides just proves how neither side can ever speak up for everyone and they never will, that's the problem.

In the US this boiling point wasn't just the BLM protests but it was also the capitol riots, all of this has been stewing and will continue to stew over because politics is not talking for everyone. What is required are uniting figures and not ideologically party driven idiots like Biden or selfishly driven people like Trump.

The state of UK politics right now is the best example that proves how dysfunctional political systems really are. We currently have a government of cheats, frauds and incompetents yet here they are still running the country after 12 years. The reason they've been in for 12 years is because the alternative is mostly just a bunch of deranged ideologically led fools who happily ignore over 80% of the country for their own ideologies.

What is really needed is to cancel the entire political system and bring in a system of government orientated around people and not politicians, parties or manifestos. Unfortunately this won't happen because it requires the political class to basically put themselves out of work and we can't be having that can we?

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

I am indeed politically nihilistic, I think that politics fails us constantly because here we are in threads arguing about which is the best but in reality the least worst option. This has resulted in politics moving over the last few years closer to its most self-destructive and violent point for a very long time. The fact that this is happening on both sides just proves how neither side can ever speak up for everyone and they never will, that's the problem.

In the US this boiling point wasn't just the BLM protests but it was also the capitol riots, all of this has been stewing and will continue to stew over because politics is not talking for everyone. What is required are uniting figures and not ideologically party driven idiots like Biden or selfishly driven people like Trump.

The state of UK politics right now is the best example that proves how dysfunctional political systems really are. We currently have a government of cheats, frauds and incompetents yet here they are still running the country after 12 years. The reason they've been in for 12 years is because the alternative is mostly just a bunch of deranged ideologically led fools who happily ignore over 80% of the country for their own ideologies.

What is really needed is to cancel the entire political system and bring in a system of government orientated around people and not politicians, parties or manifestos. Unfortunately this won't happen because it requires the political class to basically put themselves out of work and we can't be having that can we?

Nihilism followed by utopianism.

Biden isn't an ideologically driven idiot, he spent his career as a senator working to achieve bipartisan support for numerous policies.

You might as well compared him to Dennis Skinner and Corbyn, if anything he is too pragmatic.

The issues in the USA and the UK aren't principally down to personalities and the quality of politician but the limitations of our current electoral and political systems.

Better institutions and systems would prevent the prime minister from blocking investigations into his own misconduct. Corrupt and self-serving MPs and ministers wouldn't last as long because they would receive the consequences of their actions.

A fully functioning and modern democracy wouldn't have allowed Trump anywhere near power and would have been able to successfully impeach him.

Proportional representation and a codified constitutionand a president or Committee with the power to force criminal PMs out of office would prevent the liar from continuing to hold office.

 

[Vic]

Gone are the days where politicians produced a list of things they wanted to do and you decided which one you liked the sound of most. It's actually quite refreshing in a way because I don't think any party in history in any country has ever made a manifesto and kept to it. Call me a political cynic but this just goes to prove how pointless and ineffectual politics and politicians really are.

Cobblers.

I'm sure Labour in 1945 said something about a health service and nationalising things.

And more recently...

BBC NEWS | In Depth | Blair years | Labour's 1997 pledges: Economics and employment