Riot in Tottenham (continued)

[JohnMaddocksAxe]

As you were typing JMA, I made another post in response to another poster which I felt addressed your view.







As I said, I feel this is a product of politics. I ask myself why we have a culture that is so fucking greedy and I can only return to the foibles of Capitalism.

I would agree that it is the product of politics. But it is the product of numerous political decisions over decades that have contributed to the rise of a culture that too often celebrates ignorance and violence (typing that I know I sound somewhat like people I can't stand, but I think in this case it's legit).

And it isn't the product of politics that aren;t similarly in place in every other Capitalist country. So, how many people in that crowd do you think have a genuine idealogical problem with capitalism as a way of life? Very few, I suspect.

It isn't a single issue. It isn't easily addressed. It isn't a product of contemporary economic issues.

We have to be really careful here. Where do you stop when you seek to constantly explore, dissect and try to solve the reasons for criminality. God knows, I've done enough of it in the past. At what point do you disagree with an action, treat it as purely a criminal act and separate it from political issues. There must be some point because you can go as far as you want down that road. I could link political issues that allow a society to develop a Harold Shipman or a Fred West, but no-one views them in the light of political events, current and past.

But I won't excuse to any extent pure, wanton destruction that exhibits nothing but a desire to indulge in criminality for criminality's sake.

I would be the first to look for political solutions to improve society and address inequality. But by linking the events of last night with immediate and contemporary political issues it gives them far too much legitimacy. Legitimacy that they don't deserve.

It seems a strange thing to say that they don't deserve the 'respect' afforded to rioters in the instances mentioned in the past - riots which I might have understood to varying extents and whose cause I may have supported, despite them undoubtedly also containing some vary unsavoury people. But this is nothing as noble (if there can be a noble riot).

Can you honestly say that you think people last night had a sense of 'justice' in their action, even a misguided one? I don't buy it. To my knowledge, genuinely motivated crowds riot in a totally different way. Sure, some involved will do some of the shite involved last night. But for that to be the sole aim of a riot. Nah, I don't buy it.

Justice, I'm not so sure, but these kids don't find it immoral to rob and take from others. Why? Because they were brought up in a dog eat dog world. Where is the line? Why is a salesman who coaxes a working man into signing a rolling contract complete with insidious small-print labelled a go-getter when these kids are labelled the scum of the earth because they stole a bag of fucking rice?

Law doesn't reflect morals, currency doesn't reflect desert.

Until we start cultivating virtue with an appropriate economic system, there will always be this sort of stuff.

Maybe there will. Maybe we are in total agreement in that.

But why does that make this a political issue (when it shows no signs of replicating genuine violent political fights in the past) and not a criminal one?

All criminal issues are products of societies and their politics.

We make judgements as to what should be viewed, discussed and treated as criminality and what should be viewed, discussed and treated as political grievance.

Until I see a shred of genuine political motivation, this is pure criminality in my view and I will not sully the name of genuine political struggles of the past (some of which many on here will view as nonsense and criminality) by likening them to this.

It is not the same. I don't know why we are arguing about whether life is a product of politics. Of course it is. It isn't a debating point.

 

[Shadz69]

Work with a guy from India. He is amazed how standoffish our police are.

He says in Inida they would be straight in to dish it out. He reckons for all indias issues we are the one who look like a 3rd rate nation at the moment. The world is laughing at us. He make the good point that without law, order and respect and even fear of the law we can never have a democracy only anarchy.

The moral. Give the police the power to scare. If this were footie fans they would not hold back

I dont think the guards here in Ireland would let it happen when they go in with batons they dont stop.
I hopeyou all stay safe tonight.

 

[mancitymick]

Its not the Polices fault for there stand off atitude. It is the powers that be. Stop all news reporting for a few hours, Turn off CCTV then steam roll the fuckers

 

[keemcfc]

Fuck it, get the army in, 8 o'clock curfew until this shit is sorted out. Its in danger of going nationwide by the look of it - needs to be nipped in the bud ASAP.

Nipped in the bud? As in half a week ago?

It's to late now, it would've been easy to stop it in London, it will be easier next time if we learn our lesson...

We just need to stop it ASAP... Aggresive but non lethal force tonight...and if that fails, give Brigadear Jones a call ;)

 

[citysix]

civil war..

 

[mcfcliam]

I imagine tonight will be the worst night.

It's gaining momentum and unless direct action is taken, it'll carry on.

As TFC said, it's going nationwide, albeit at a smaller scale but if fuck all is done, it'll grow and grow.

 

[SWP's back]

civil war..

jolly ranchers.

(what game we playing?)

 

[Lancet Fluke]

Mindless thugs or disenfranchised youths, rioters or legitimate protesters, the fact remains that the commentators in the media and many posters on here advocate far right wing answers to the situation. It appears that many people are advocating a virtual police state, an end to civil liberties and a rigid authoritarian approach.

A tory MP was ranting about teenagers being out after midnight, does he not realise you can marry and fight for your country at 16, drive at 17 etc. Does he want curfews i ask? Do we want curfews, do we want as law abiding citizens to see our liberties taken away from us because of the actions of a minority. The far right want this and its dangerous.

I don't believe this is a right wing left wing situation now. People just want this to stop and if it takes a curfew or certain liberties taken away in the short term until things calm down then so be it. Law abiding citizens have been affected by this on many levels but I reckon the people of Croydon might be more open to having their lives affected by a temporary curfew than affected by having their town burnt down. I don't think there will be a long term curfew put into place at all, the government have shown that they are making an effort not to be heavy handed so I suspect it is very unlikely.

Thing is, there would be a danger that this temporary curfew could be extended at will, however unlikely this would be. I suspect there are a decent number of people who would be concerned by this.

Well it is very unlikely so it is a risk worth taking I think. And whilst I understand this would concern people, those concerns have to balanced against the concerns people have over what has happened over the last 3 nights.

 

[SWP's back]

I imagine tonight will be the worst night.

It's gaining momentum and unless direct action is taken, it'll carry on.

As TFC said, it's going nationwide, albeit at a smaller scale but if fuck all is done, it'll grow and grow.

I think you will find the police are more "robust" in their policing tonight.

The little shites are going to get a tonking.

 

[Fame Monster]

I would agree that it is the product of politics. But it is the product of numerous political decisions over decades that have contributed to the rise of a culture that too often celebrates ignorance and violence (typing that I know I sound somewhat like people I can't stand, but I think in this case it's legit).

And it isn't the product of politics that aren;t similarly in place in every other Capitalist country. So, how many people in that crowd do you think have a genuine idealogical problem with capitalism as a way of life? Very few, I suspect.

It isn't a single issue. It isn't easily addressed. It isn't a product of contemporary economic issues.

We have to be really careful here. Where do you stop when you seek to constantly explore, dissect and try to solve the reasons for criminality. God knows, I've done enough of it in the past. At what point do you disagree with an action, treat it as purely a criminal act and separate it from political issues. There must be some point because you can go as far as you want down that road. I could link political issues that allow a society to develop a Harold Shipman or a Fred West, but no-one views them in the light of political events, current and past.

But I won't excuse to any extent pure, wanton destruction that exhibits nothing but a desire to indulge in criminality for criminality's sake.

I would be the first to look for political solutions to improve society and address inequality. But by linking the events of last night with immediate and contemporary political issues it gives them far too much legitimacy. Legitimacy that they don't deserve.

It seems a strange thing to say that they don't deserve the 'respect' afforded to rioters in the instances mentioned in the past - riots which I might have understood to varying extents and whose cause I may have supported, despite them undoubtedly also containing some vary unsavoury people. But this is nothing as noble (if there can be a noble riot).

Can you honestly say that you think people last night had a sense of 'justice' in their action, even a misguided one? I don't buy it. To my knowledge, genuinely motivated crowds riot in a totally different way. Sure, some involved will do some of the shite involved last night. But for that to be the sole aim of a riot. Nah, I don't buy it.

Justice, I'm not so sure, but these kids don't find it immoral to rob and take from others. Why? Because they were brought up in a dog eat dog world. Where is the line? Why is a salesman who coaxes a working man into signing a rolling contract complete with insidious small-print labelled a go-getter when these kids are labelled the scum of the earth because they stole a bag of fucking rice?

Law doesn't reflect morals, currency doesn't reflect desert.

Until we start cultivating virtue with an appropriate economic system, there will always be this sort of stuff.

Maybe there will. Maybe we are in total agreement in that.

But why does that make this a political issue (when it shows no signs of replicating genuine violent political fights in the past) and not a criminal one?

All criminal issues are products of societies and their politics.

We make judgements as to what should be viewed, discussed and treated as criminality and what should be viewed, discussed and treated as political grievance.

Until I see a shred of genuine political motivation, this is pure criminality in my view and I will not sully the name of genuine political struggles of the past (some of which many on here will view as nonsense and criminality) by likening them to this.

It is not the same. I don't know why we are arguing about whether life is a product of politics. Of course it is. It isn't a debating point.

These people aren't motivated by politics by the way. I've never said that. I said that their actions are a product of politics as are all crimes for financial benefit. On the other hand, I consider rape/murder/battery a creation of evolution.