Scottish Independence

[west didsblue]

there is nothing inconsistent in believing that membership of the EU is beneficial wether Scotland is part of the Union or an independent country. There is absolutely no guarantee that Scotland will be an independent country. It is unquestionably pro EU though. I really don’t get the hypocrisy claim. I must have missed the claim that Brexit was impossible other than contradictory red lines set by the U.K. government. There are specific difficulties in Ireland where it potentially conflicts the GFA. An England Scotland border would really depend on the nature of the trading relationship agreed between the two countries.q

Sorting out the England/Scotland border would be a piece of piss compared to ROI/NI. I bet 60% of trade is via the M6/M74 and another 30% via the A1 with the rest spread over only three or four more roads. There’s no threat of violence so relatively speaking there’s no comparison.

 

[Coatigan]

Really?

So no protections of the single market or customs union will be needed?

Freedom of movement?

Sturgeon when asked yesterday literally said what leavers have said the last 3 years and you and others have totally dismissed as never going to work or be acceptable to the EU.

She said that solutions will be found that ensures no hard border is needed so that people and goods can move freely.

Fucking hypocrite she is!

I honestly haven't read that. but i take your word for it. im under no illusion that (all completely hypothetical as nothing had happened yet) if an independent Scotland was in the EU, and England wasn't, some type of border would be needed. I'd guess the point is more, it is easier than N.I. due to no GFA. During the indyref, there was threats of a border, which at the time, with both in the EU was total mince. Obviously if brexit happens, the political landscape changes. You clearly know the context it was said in, i don't.

I don't deny there is inherent hypocrisy to both 'movements' where certain logic overlaps. As evident in your own posts as much as anything, and mine probably, and anyone's who tries to apply one logic to one and not the other.

 

[Coatigan]

They're an independent country, they should have a referendum whenever they see fit.

However they are also part of the UK so we'll be splitting their oil 4 ways and they'll be taking a quarter of our debt. Because the UK paid for the development of it and they took their share of the UK debt on. Easy.

Worth including as well, the UK taking a share of Scottish deficit, and Scotland as such keeping the currency. All been covered before btw.

 

[west didsblue]

How does that work? Is Scotland's oil not in private hands? Hence, investments have been made out of private hands, and the ownership of the oil would remain in private hands but liable to be taxed in Scotland?

The Scottish government has published figures about how much North Sea oil revenue is attributable to Scottish waters so in the event of SCEXIT Scotland would gain an additional 1 or 2 billion into its coffers. This would only go about 10% of the way to getting rid of its large deficit but it would help. Charging rUK for using Faslane would also help and if Scotland secured EU membership with rUK out, there would be a large movement of business from London to Edinburgh.

 

[blueinsa]

I honestly haven't read that. but i take your word for it. im under no illusion that (all completely hypothetical as nothing had happened yet) if an independent Scotland was in the EU, and England wasn't, some type of border would be needed. I'd guess the point is more, it is easier than N.I. due to no GFA. During the indyref, there was threats of a border, which at the time, with both in the EU was total mince. Obviously if brexit happens, the political landscape changes. You clearly know the context it was said in, i don't.

I don't deny there is inherent hypocrisy to both 'movements' where certain logic overlaps. As evident in your own posts as much as anything, and mine probably, and anyone's who tries to apply one logic to one and not the other.

My argument is this.

Should Scotland leave the UK and be in the EU after we have left then absolutely there should be no hard border if that is what both he Scottish and English government decide. The EU should be told politely to keep its nose out.

Now I'm almost certain that is exactly what both governments will want and I've little doubt any noise from the EU telling Scotland that a hard border will have to be in place will be met with them saying no in the same way Dublin and London said no to threats of a hard border in Ireland.

Id fully support no border as it would be needless and ridiculous and solutions could and would be found in the same way they will be found for Ireland.

No hypocrisy here.

 

[blueinsa]

The Scottish government has published figures about how much North Sea oil revenue is attributable to Scottish waters so in the event of SCEXIT Scotland would gain an additional 1 or 2 billion into its coffers. This would only go about 10% of the way to getting rid of its large deficit but it would help. Charging rUK for using Faslane would also help and if Scotland secured EU membership with rUK out, there would be a large movement of business from London to Edinburgh.

Until the Shetland and Orkney isles tell them they want to be part of the UK and can do one.

I'm certain many of the fields will lie in their coastal waters.

 

[west didsblue]

Until the Shetland and Orkney isles tell them they want to be part of the UK and can do one.

I'm certain many of the fields will lie in their coastal waters.

Fair comment. If that’s what Shetland and Orkney do then I agree.
Maybe London and Manchester should fuck Brexit off on the same basis?

 

[FlemishDuck]

Should Scotland leave the UK and be in the EU after we have left then absolutely there should be no hard border if that is what both he Scottish and English government decide. The EU should be told politely to keep its nose out.

Thats not how it works i think, i presume the placement of a customs border would be a requirement placed on Scotland before joining the EU.

 

[Coatigan]

My argument is this.

Should Scotland leave the UK and be in the EU after we have left then absolutely there should be no hard border if that is what both he Scottish and English government decide. The EU should be told politely to keep its nose out.

Now I'm almost certain that is exactly what both governments will want and I've little doubt any noise from the EU telling Scotland that a hard border will have to be in place will be met with them saying no in the same way Dublin and London said no to threats of a hard border in Ireland.

Id fully support no border as it would be needless and ridiculous and solutions could and would be found in the same way they will be found for Ireland.

No hypocrisy here.

We are not saying anything different, you and i. Other than, I recognize the N.I border is different because of the GFA, which, wouldnt have been possible without the EU lets not forget. There are precedents where non-eu countries have no border with an EU country. And there are precedents where they do. All literally depends on the trade and custom and movement arrangement in each. In a no deal brexit, an eng/scot border becomes more likely (assuming obvs scot independence). But a soft brexit with england remaining in customs union etc, then, no, a border isnt required.

I doubt you fail to recognise the difference between the irish case and the hypothetical above. And i doubt you are unaware of the multiple possible outcomes. You are way more switched on than that, clearly.

I agree, on one level, it is hypocritical. But there are many, on which it isnt. It is your choice and that of the media to frame it in the context that suits. And, yes, i agree too. In that context, if that is the only one being mooted in isolation.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Sorting out the England/Scotland border would be a piece of piss compared to ROI/NI. I bet 60% of trade is via the M6/M74 and another 30% via the A1 with the rest spread over only three or four more roads. There’s no threat of violence so relatively speaking there’s no comparison.

I tend to agree. It depends wether Scotland aligns itself with Europe ultimately as part of the EU (border more difficult) or with whats left of the rest of the UK (border easier). I would count nothing out at this stage.