The Conservative Party

metalblue said:
You just like the number 3 don’t you? ;)

I can honestly say I know a few who meet your criteria and they all went to state school down to earth types. Certainly got lucky in their careers mind, a couple got very wealthy (>£100m) off the back of setting up their own firms- their kids might well fall into the category of inherited/ entitled but that’s down to their parents. That said some people are just cunts and some of those cunts also have lots of money.
Click to expand...

It's a nice number, especially this year!

I know reasonably well maybe a dozen of so who fall into the category and a couple who I think qualify as high net worth individuals which is >£25m I think these days before HMRC take a bit of an interest in you?? One is definitely not playing with a full deck and I would say is amoral rather than immoral, another is just a nutter whose made money in security but the others are mostly in that third category. A few of them are state school and are down to earth types but even then come from a reasonably comfortable albeit not posh background, I can think of one from a similar background to halfmist. I once had a boss who was very much in the self-made man category, very bright and sociable and looked like he had everything going for him including family and big network of friends, he was someone who lots of us took as a bit of a mentor but one day out of the blue, he booked into a hotel room and killed himself and it seemed like the pursuit of ever greater wealth might have played a part. A sad sad saluatory situation.

It's a really interesting subject, about 18 months ago I fell into working with some academics one of whom has a specialism in understanding how social capital impacts life chances, some stuff is obvious other bits less so. There's all sorts of factors but education (in the broadest sense) is a key thing which can make a difference, which is why I would love to see it stop being used as a political football. The number and type of Secretaries of State we've got through over the years is farcical.
 
halfmist said:
Nice post, well put. It’s difficult to argue with your points
I am from a working class, one parent,(father died when I was very young)3 kids family
Bought up in terraced, outside loo and tin bath, 11+ failure, left school with only a few qualifications so I think we can discount your options 2 +3 as applying to me.
My point about risk is/ was you have to take it at sometime in life if you want to get on.
perhaps as I got older my risks were more calculated.
Yes some of my wealth is down to luck, but I only ever risked what I could afford to lose. My business was always there to put food on the table and rebuild the pot, if needed.
I did my last share trade in March this year and the share price has since tumbled.
I now only invest in Land near other housing developments that don’t have planning permission at the moment.
The problem appears to be with some of the same old faces on the politics thread is they hate any sort of success stories.
I can see why there are social mobility issues within the classes.
I started off as working class and but am now middle class.
The classes tend to stay within their own social strata as on social occasions the middle classes tend to avoid the working classes fearing the sort of reaction that’s given on here to anybody declaring they have a bob or two and not ashamed of it.
Because of the chip on the shoulder they miss out on lots of jobs, business opportunities, advice, help etc.which social mobility brings with it
Politically I am seen on here as some sort of Nigel Farage but in reality I see good and bad in all Parties and post Thatcher , just let the politicians decide what ever and just work round it
I think there are many on the left who are expecting miracles if Labour get in but apart from a bit of tweaking at the edges they are going to be severely disappointed when they see same old under a different name.
There just isn’t the spare money out there to do anything radical or please everyone.
Click to expand...

The internet is nothing if not reductive Nigel :-)

I could discuss the question of social mobility and risk reward all day long tbh, its very interesting. I've had the opportunity to talk lots of young people over the last couple of years some of whom you might think have a chip on their shoulder but actually when you talk to them about their understanding of the world and their hopes and fears it turns out not to be the case. Obviously some people are just dickheads but my experience was these were the minority. There is a chicken and egg situation around social mobility and people getting access to all the things you mention that people miss out on and I think the obligation is on those in the better position to make the first move. Digressing onto the wider issue of taking risks, not that long ago I sat down with a young man who quite articulately explained to me why he was following a life of criminality, he wasn't making excuses for himself he simply in his own way explained the risk/reward of the options he viewed open to him and how he morally justified it in his head (which he did think about). We even talked about what it would take for him to to move from illegitimate ways of making money. It was quite enlightening.

Anyway I'm helping derail the thread so to try and bring it back to topic, I think social mobility is absolutely possible as I am living proof of it too. Personally I am good with an interventionist state that sees it as part of it's role because there's loads of evidence that intelligent interventions can improve social mobility and that in turn brings a net benefit to society. The thing that hacks me off about the current government is that they have never shown any meaningful interest in social mobility whatsoever, they continue to act in the interests of a small minority let alone even the majority of the people who voted for them. I don't know how a new Labour government will perform but I would say there is enough money in the system to improve things if it is spent intelligently for the benefit of the broader population, especially if we also grasp the nettle of some of the issues with our tax systems.
 
threespires said:
It's a nice number, especially this year!

I know reasonably well maybe a dozen of so who fall into the category and a couple who I think qualify as high net worth individuals which is >£25m I think these days before HMRC take a bit of an interest in you?? One is definitely not playing with a full deck and I would say is amoral rather than immoral, another is just a nutter whose made money in security but the others are mostly in that third category. A few of them are state school and are down to earth types but even then come from a reasonably comfortable albeit not posh background, I can think of one from a similar background to halfmist. I once had a boss who was very much in the self-made man category, very bright and sociable and looked like he had everything going for him including family and big network of friends, he was someone who lots of us took as a bit of a mentor but one day out of the blue, he booked into a hotel room and killed himself and it seemed like the pursuit of ever greater wealth might have played a part. A sad sad saluatory situation.

It's a really interesting subject, about 18 months ago I fell into working with some academics one of whom has a specialism in understanding how social capital impacts life chances, some stuff is obvious other bits less so. There's all sorts of factors but education (in the broadest sense) is a key thing which can make a difference, which is why I would love to see it stop being used as a political football. The number and type of Secretaries of State we've got through over the years is farcical.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Education, education education as Tony Blair once said. If the State Level could get anywhere near to the private level it would be a massive step for social mobility. One can only dream because it will not come from just throwing money at the problem
 
threespires said:
The internet is nothing if not reductive Nigel :-)

I could discuss the question of social mobility and risk reward all day long tbh, its very interesting. I've had the opportunity to talk lots of young people over the last couple of years some of whom you might think have a chip on their shoulder but actually when you talk to them about their understanding of the world and their hopes and fears it turns out not to be the case. Obviously some people are just dickheads but my experience was these were the minority. There is a chicken and egg situation around social mobility and people getting access to all the things you mention that people miss out on and I think the obligation is on those in the better position to make the first move. Digressing onto the wider issue of taking risks, not that long ago I sat down with a young man who quite articulately explained to me why he was following a life of criminality, he wasn't making excuses for himself he simply in his own way explained the risk/reward of the options he viewed open to him and how he morally justified it in his head (which he did think about). We even talked about what it would take for him to to move from illegitimate ways of making money. It was quite enlightening.

Anyway I'm helping derail the thread so to try and bring it back to topic, I think social mobility is absolutely possible as I am living proof of it too. Personally I am good with an interventionist state that sees it as part of it's role because there's loads of evidence that intelligent interventions can improve social mobility and that in turn brings a net benefit to society. The thing that hacks me off about the current government is that they have never shown any meaningful interest in social mobility whatsoever, they continue to act in the interests of a small minority let alone even the majority of the people who voted for them. I don't know how a new Labour government will perform but I would say there is enough money in the system to improve things if it is spent intelligently for the benefit of the broader population, especially if we also grasp the nettle of some of the issues with our tax systems.
Click to expand...
It will be interesting what Labour do over VAT on private school fees and will they be bold enough to abolish the 11+
 
halfmist said:
It will be interesting what Labour do over VAT on private school fees and will they be bold enough to abolish the 11+
Click to expand...

I would hope they do stick to the VAT position, I think it's a loophole that needs to be closed and I don't for a minute believe the ISC when it says that it'll cripple the sector and reduce choice as they've been hiking their fees above inflation for years without it having any impact.

Whilst I'm kind of intuitively against selective schooling I'm not convinced abolishing the 11+ is worth the focus or political capital it'll take. There is no evidence base to show that selective schooling increases social mobility but then again there is no evidence to show that the comprehensive system improves it either. Think there's some evidence that poorer pupils at grammar schools can do better but then there's a correlation with poorer pupils in those same areas who didn't get into the selective school doing even worse so there's no net benefit.

What is much more clear cut is that other parameters such as level of social deprivation, social mix etc affect school performance rather than the type of system employed. Some schools in deprived areas have done really well in bucking those trends through specific interventions with their children but it takes leadership and some funding. The government of the day would be better employed in helping children move out of poverty and understanding those schools and replicating their models instead of pissing about with ideological battles about different types of systems. A good example would be academisation, in the round it has achieved the square root of fuck all in terms of improved educational outcomes; money tipped down the drain for ideological purposes. I'm a governor at a school with some talented and creative teachers and it makes me weep to think of the impact that some of the money wasted on ill conceived Dfe policies could have made in the hands of those teachers.
 
halfmist said:
I am impressed I left such an impression on you.
I must admit it wouldn’t be difficult to remember me as any one not on the left gets such a hard time by the baying mob on here, they don’t bother posting.
For the record, I didn’t borrow from the family.
For those family members who didn’t want to RISK their money, (risk is that thing you have to do if you want to get on in life and not rely on others to give you a living), I GAVE them the money and we shared the gain.
A win win situation for both of us. I then built up a cash surplus through hard work in MY business and RISKED some of the surplus with my wife’s backing who had full confidence in me, on the Stock Market.
There is an old saying fortune favours the brave.
Those not prepared to take risks, plod along and rely on others to take risks for them are always the first ones to moan about an unfair Society.
You get out of life what you put in and no politician from whatever persuasion is going to make any significant difference to your life.
Hence I don’t really give a shit who ever gets in power.
Click to expand...
Your smug self satisfaction makes me puke you ****.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top
✖
  AdBlock Detected
Bluemoon relies on advertising to pay our hosting fees. Please support the site by disabling your ad blocking software to help keep the forum sustainable. Thanks.