The FTSE

[RandomJ]

So like a Ponzi scheme, then?

Crypto is rife with scams. There have been a lot of high profile scams over the last couple of years with internet "influencers" (vomit) getting their fans to buy in on their shit coin to pump the price, and then instantly rug pull cashing in and leaving their fans holding the bag with a worthless coin.

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

Crypto is rife with scams. There have been a lot of high profile scams over the last couple of years with internet "influencers" (vomit) getting their fans to buy in on their shit coin to pump the price, and then instantly rug pull cashing in and leaving their fans holding the bag with a worthless coin.

I still wonder how Musk doesn't fall foul of rigging the price via his tweets?

 

[RandomJ]

I still wonder how Musk doesn't fall foul of rigging the price via his tweets?

Cos it's not regulated. It's the wild west. That's why you have a bunch of "crypto bros" who have ended up with more money than sense. You get "influencers" who get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to send one tweet to their followers promoting a shit coin to pump up the price before the owners dump it leaving everyone holding the bag. It is insane what is happening.

I have nothing against Crypto per se as a concept but until countries get their act together and put some legislation in place for it, it will continue to be a haven for scammers and money launderers.

 

[Wafty Cranker]

Yeah if I'm not mistaken the poster I was referring too usually comes on this thread to talk about how crypto is the best investment vehicle (using strange and indirect stock market analysis to reinforce their view).

Admittedly, there are people who've gambled on crypto successfully - far, far more who've lost money but hey ho, that's gambling for you.

You'd do very well to find sensible, level headed people who've lost money on index funds over the course of two decades though.

Far far more people have lost money on crypto? I don’t know about that. Some of the shitcoins maybe.

Bitcoin is the best performing asset of the last decade with an annualised return of over 200% during that time. If you losing money you’re either short term trading, getting burnt with leverage, lost your coins somehow, or are a paper hands woman!

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Can you please explain to us all how ANY (non-dividend) STOCK goes up in price on the secondary market?

The key difference, with traditional securities, the underlying value ultimately goes back to the investor or you own a stake in something for as long as you hold it - every quarter you get to see a set of financial statements that tell you what that stake is worth. Its all highly regulated so if what you are being told is BS people end up in jail. People trust it because of the regulation and it works. People have been making money on stock markets for 100's of years. Fraud happens but its rare. Businesses can fail to make money but on balance money is made.

With Crypto there is nothing. Its all hype. Look at any crypto 'analyst' they just talk BS, there is no real data to talk about. The model of crypto is to make you think you are investing in some sophisticated tech and talk it up like stock and flash lots of graphs. Make you think you have a stake in some great new thing. You have nothing. Might as well be buying tulips.

Of course people do make money in crypto - but people make money in pyramid schemes. Its suckers who buy in late that lose everything.

 

[Wafty Cranker]

With Crypto there is nothing. Its all hype. Look at any crypto 'analyst' they just talk BS, there is no real data to talk about. The model of crypto is to make you think you are investing in some sophisticated tech and talk it up like stock and flash lots of graphs. Make you think you have a stake in some great new thing. You have nothing. Might as well be buying tulips.

Of course people do make money in crypto - but people make money in pyramid schemes. Its suckers who buy in late that lose everything.

There is shit loads of data to talk about. That’s one of the pros for blockchain technology. All the data is there. For example, you can look at the amount of coins moving on/off exchanges. If you really want you can look at the orders on exchanges and watch them get filled.

People monitor the high value wallets to see what the whales are doing. Likewise for miners.

You can look at coins being moved around between addresses and the age of those coins.

There’s the hash rate. There is so much data and stats that there are many websites, YouTube channels and podcasts dedicated to just that.

It’s like crypto doubters bingo sometimes. You need Tulips, Ponzi schemes, Pyramid scheme, greater fool theory and no intrinsic value for a full house.

Even Berkshire Hathaway have been selling MasterCard and Visa and have bought a billion dollars worth of Nubank, which is a bank that offers Bitcoin ETF’s.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

It has a fundamental flaw that investors can only make money from the inflow from new investors.

The key difference, with traditional securities, the underlying value ultimately goes back to the investor or you own a stake in something for as long as you hold it - every quarter you get to see a set of financial statements that tell you what that stake is worth. Its all highly regulated so if what you are being told is BS people end up in jail. People trust it because of the regulation and it works. People have been making money on stock markets for 100's of years. Fraud happens but its rare. Businesses can fail to make money but on balance money is made.

With Crypto there is nothing. Its all hype. Look at any crypto 'analyst' they just talk BS, there is no real data to talk about. The model of crypto is to make you think you are investing in some sophisticated tech and talk it up like stock and flash lots of graphs. Make you think you have a stake in some great new thing. You have nothing. Might as well be buying tulips.

Of course people do make money in crypto - but people make money in pyramid schemes. Its suckers who buy in late that lose everything.

As a banker, you know that the secondary market in stocks is as much the Wild Wild West as any crypto investment.

Both are a “buyer meeting seller” exchange of money, with a BELIEF there is some underlying, fundamental value to the asset.

Having worked for a company that went “bankrupt” while staying in business and lining the pockets of lawyers and executives…while slashing the wages and benefits of employees…all quite legal, with excellent “regulatory oversight” right up until that oversight was meaningless, of course, many, many equities are a risky investment.

Trading on the hope of future revenues and company growth seems like it is very similar to trading on the hope of future increased utility and value in crypto, where more demand outpaces supply.

It is NOT a Ponzi scheme.

Now, I’ll grant you Crypto might not be as liquid and easily traded between people as equity, but then both investments require a “middleman exchange” to help execute the trade, because in both instances there is not REAL exchange of the asset, only an electronic exchange of ownership.

In summary, they are same same, with only the risk of ownership being at different places on the spectrum.

If Risk = Reward, then those with the ability to accept the risk are also willing to accept the potential rewards, or lack thereof, which is inherent in the equation.

I’m not sure I would equate crypto to tulips, but I can see why someone who makes a living trading money for other assets might see it that way.

As I mentioned earlier, I have a small investment in GBTC and ETHE. They have not really paid off yet, but then I’m not looking for a quick fix. Rather, I have taken a small part of my portfolio and placed it in this high risk asset and am willing to see if there is the long term potential it portends.

If not, the minimum risk part of my portfolio will more than offset any limited loss.

Thank you for your answer, and for being willing to engage on the topic.

 

[BusterPhillips]

As a banker, you know that the secondary market in stocks is as much the Wild Wild West as any crypto investment.

Both are a “buyer meeting seller” exchange of money, with a BELIEF there is some underlying, fundamental value to the asset.

Having worked for a company that went “bankrupt” while staying in business and lining the pockets of lawyers and executives…while slashing the wages and benefits of employees…all quite legal, with excellent “regulatory oversight” right up until that oversight was meaningless, of course, many, many equities are a risky investment.

Trading on the hope of future revenues and company growth seems like it is very similar to trading on the hope of future increased utility and value in crypto, where more demand outpaces supply.

It is NOT a Ponzi scheme.

Now, I’ll grant you Crypto might not be as liquid and easily traded between people as equity, but then both investments require a “middleman exchange” to help execute the trade, because in both instances there is not REAL exchange of the asset, only an electronic exchange of ownership.

In summary, they are same same, with only the risk of ownership being at different places on the spectrum.

If Risk = Reward, then those with the ability to accept the risk are also willing to accept the potential rewards, or lack thereof, which is inherent in the equation.

I’m not sure I would equate crypto to tulips, but I can see why someone who makes a living trading money for other assets might see it that way.

As I mentioned earlier, I have a small investment in GBTC and ETHE. They have not really paid off yet, but then I’m not looking for a quick fix. Rather, I have taken a small part of my portfolio and placed it in this high risk asset and am willing to see if there is the long term potential it portends.

If not, the minimum risk part of my portfolio will more than offset any limited loss.

Thank you for your answer, and for being willing to engage on the topic.

I think crypto is somewhere between both of your views to be honest, I trade crypto for money not for fundamentals. Anyone investing purely for fundamentals is too early in my books.. the tech isn't fast or cheap enough yet

 

[BusterPhillips]

I still wonder how Musk doesn't fall foul of rigging the price via his tweets?

What he did with his Tesla shares was way worse.

 

[The blue phantom]

This isn't going to be pretty, Expecting a bloodbath.