The Holistic Approach

[chris85mcfc]

Mut, could have been a lot worse. I think you try to be a c**t. You do a good job too.

I am merely expressing an opinion. If that makes me a ****, I'm OK with it.

The article the OP quoted drew a negative comparison between last year's transfer dealings and the business done in this window - with an explicit linking reference to Mancini's sacking.

Two points:

Mancini publically stated on several occasions that he was not happy with the transfer business last season. He didn't get the players he wanted and those he did get came too late. The comparison made in the article doesn't float if this fact is considered.

Secondly. The 4 players we have signed are as yet unproven in the Prem. Surely every fan of the club can recall many examples of players with big reputations who didn't deliver - Robinho, Corradi, Jo, Bridge, Berti etc. etc. The signings we have made may well turn out to be the new Silvas and Agueros, nobody hopes so more than me, but the article the OP quotes is making conclusions based on assumptions which are currently unproven.

The holistic revolution is a sea change, no doubt about that. We've moved squarely into the barca and juve model of football - the team on the pitch being the tip of the proverbial iceberg. It's exciting, it's challenging, it has massive potential. But, I will here the plaudits for Holism, transfers and Pellegrini being better than Mancini when we've actually tested that potential. At the moment it's just some hack saying it is.

Mancini didn't get RVP or Hazard

Pellegrini didn't get Cavani or Isco

Mancini sulked and had no fall back plans

See where I am going with this?

-- Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:48 pm --

Firstly the notion that RVP won the league for United is frankly bollocks. United statistically did not improve from season 2011/12. RVP scored 26 goals compared to Rooney's 27 the season before.

RVP, scoring 26 league goals is about standard for United's main man. Let's not forget that there's normally 7-10 penalties per season for their penalty taker. If Rooney had taken the pens that RVP did, their league totals would have been similar last year.

United bought the leagues best striker, statistically they went backwards. It was City that drastically under achieved and went backwards at a canter.86-89 points will be required nearly every year to win the Prem.
United got 89 points, but still wouldn't have won the league in 2011/12.

We dropped what? 8 more points at home than the season before? Only 3 more than the season before away from home.
So you could argue that our home form cost us, reverse the derby and things would have looked a lot closer.

RVP was a good signing but he did nothing the Rooney didn't do the season before.

That asides, the holistic approach is or seems to be looking good. We have bought round pegs for round holes. Siging a Cavanini or a Falcao would have been detrimental to the team. Neither are as good as Aguero, yet both would demand to be top dog, where as Sergio is a great team player, and great impact sub and all in all a very good man to have around.

An elite signing would demand to play week in week out. How do you build a team based on this? The players we have bought seem ideal for what we need, I along with many fans believe that pace on the left and cover at right sided centre half are all we are short of an excellent squad.

The holistic approach has arguably been seen in full working order already. The players seem happier, some egos have left and even the wages seem more parable throughout the squad.
The ideas of the Spaniards and Pellegrini have made our squad look significantly stronger more balance, I dare say a tighter group with a team ethos at heart.

Emphasis seems to be with Zabba, Richards, Kompany, Aguero, Milner and Nastasic to front the squad, all players with incredible team ethic. Navas is a hard working winger, Jovetic is a grafter with a great team ethic as is Negredo and Fernadinho gave up what £4 million to join us.
We have added four international players, strong, established players yet reduced our wage bill. This makes it hard to mock the 'holistic approach'.

Pellegrini has or seems to have got the squad believing they are a team. He hears rumours in the paper, he tells the media that he is happy with his squad, but if the right player comes up, well we'll always consider it. He hears rumours about Dzeko, what does he do? He tells the World that he believes Dzeko to be a great player with an important future at City. I loved Mancini, but he sometimes didn't play the game.

Pellegrini will tell the media that Dzeko is irraplacable, a great player, someone he's admired for years. This has three very good effects.
1. Dzeko feels great, happy to play and builds his confidence. Then we see some great performances in some very difficult conditions.
2. Tell the rest of the squad that he has faith in the players here. That he will give everyone a chance.
3. Indicates to the World that Dzeko is important, even if he isn't. Thus keeping his value high.

As I say I loved Mancini, I highly rate Mourinho, but as a business man, I wouldn't want them doing my sales and purchasing.
Both make it abundantly clear that they want to buy, that they will buy at almost any price, driving prices up. Both will also make it clear as day if they dislike a player, and his value will plummet.

In my eventual summary. I think we have a better team, a better squad, and happier squad and youth will see that the appointment of Viera as an indication that we intend to take our youth very seriously.

Stopped reading after the RVP was frankly bollocks line,dress it up all you want after that,about City that is,but thing is the stats don't lie,some people just don't seem to want to acknowledge it that's all

Not only has he acknowledged the stats, he has also gone on to explain to you how our poor stats were detrimental to us retaining the title, and the potential reasons for those poor stats...

 

[blueyorkie]

Chelsea have signed Schurle and Van Ginkel this summer. Their approach is even more holistic than ours! :) The Rooney transfer is a pipe dream of epic proportions in my opinion. United won't sell to Chelsea and Chelsea know it. Chelsea for their part also passed up on Cavani and Falcao.

The clubs threatening the non holistic approach this summer are United and Arsenal. I'm fairly comfortable that neither of them will get their a list targets (Fabregas, Suarez). Looks like Bale's going to Madrid. All in all the notion that Chelsea are favourites can only be predicated on the return of Mourinho. I admit it'll be quite an interesting battle between him and Pellegrini. However our squad is stronger than theirs in three crucial areas, central defence, central midfield, and forwards.

Arsenal have been the model of an holistic approach, one manager, no 'star' signings, kids coming through the youth set-up, and they've won bugger all. Chelsea have been the model of a non-holistic approach, lots of managers, plenty of 'star' signings, no kids coming through, and have won plenty.

I don't understand your point. Just because City didn't go for the so called marquee names on the market this summer, that doesn't automatically imply they won't sign marquee players. Just means they won't take the approach of filling the squad with high earning so called marquee players.

Think the marquee signing will happen in a years time but this will be the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Deleted member 52846]

Chelsea have signed Schurle and Van Ginkel this summer. Their approach is even more holistic than ours! :) The Rooney transfer is a pipe dream of epic proportions in my opinion. United won't sell to Chelsea and Chelsea know it. Chelsea for their part also passed up on Cavani and Falcao.

The clubs threatening the non holistic approach this summer are United and Arsenal. I'm fairly comfortable that neither of them will get their a list targets (Fabregas, Suarez). Looks like Bale's going to Madrid. All in all the notion that Chelsea are favourites can only be predicated on the return of Mourinho. I admit it'll be quite an interesting battle between him and Pellegrini. However our squad is stronger than theirs in three crucial areas, central defence, central midfield, and forwards.

Arsenal have been the model of an holistic approach, one manager, no 'star' signings, kids coming through the youth set-up, and they've won bugger all. Chelsea have been the model of a non-holistic approach, lots of managers, plenty of 'star' signings, no kids coming through, and have won plenty.

I don't understand your point. Just because City didn't go for the so called marquee names on the market this summer, that doesn't automatically imply they won't sign marquee players. Just means they won't take the approach of filling the squad with high earning so called marquee players.

Again we did look quite deeply, and even tested Napoli with a price that they knocked back and we came back and said he isn't worth the asking price, into the signing of Cavani.

Plus marquee players very rarely come and sign for Premier League teams. They come when they're young (CRonaldo, Henry, Fabrgas), before they've made a true marquee name for themselves (Torres, Drogba, Agüero, Vieira to Arsenal), or when they're older (Desailly, Vieira to us, Shevcenko). On rare occasions (Bergkamp, Yaya) Prem clubs do sign top names in their prime from top clubs, but not often at all. So I wouldn't hold my breath over them coming.

 

[hgblue]

Arsenal have been the model of an holistic approach, one manager, no 'star' signings, kids coming through the youth set-up, and they've won bugger all. Chelsea have been the model of a non-holistic approach, lots of managers, plenty of 'star' signings, no kids coming through, and have won plenty.

I don't understand your point. Just because City didn't go for the so called marquee names on the market this summer, that doesn't automatically imply they won't sign marquee players. Just means they won't take the approach of filling the squad with high earning so called marquee players.

Again we did look quite deeply, and even tested Napoli with a price that they knocked back and we came back and said he isn't worth the asking price, into the signing of Cavani.

Plus marquee players very rarely come and sign for Premier League teams. They come when they're young (CRonaldo, Henry, Fabrgas), before they've made a true marquee name for themselves (Torres, Drogba, Agüero, Vieira to Arsenal), or when they're older (Desailly, Vieira to us, Shevcenko). On rare occasions (Bergkamp, Yaya) Prem clubs do sign top names in their prime from top clubs, but not often at all. So I wouldn't hold my breath over them coming.

So Suarez and Rooney aren't going to Arsenal and Chelsea? I hope you're right, because Rooney working for Mourinho with the likes of Lukaku, Hazard, Mata and Oscar around him is a worrying prospect for me, and Suarez banging the goals in for Arsenal makes them a serious threat imo. I have my fingers crossed that Aguero stays healthy because building your team around one star striker has one obvious drawback.....

 

[SWP's back]

Not only has he acknowledged the stats, he has also gone on to explain to you how our poor stats were detrimental to us retaining the title, and the potential reasons for those poor stats...

I know, I have said the same. Are you sure you meant to quote me?<br /><br />-- Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:31 am --<br /><br />

On rare occasions (Bergkamp, Yaya) Prem clubs do sign top names in their prime from top clubs, but not often at all. So I wouldn't hold my breath over them coming.

Yaya was not a top top name when he came, he had sat on the bench the season previous behind Busquets on the Barca bench and filled in a CB a number of times. The press here called him overpriced when he came if you remember.

And Berkamp had come off two poor seasons, scoring just 11 goals in that time. Berkamp made his name a Arsenal rather than before.

 

[SWP's back]

I have my fingers crossed that Aguero stays healthy because building your team around one star striker has one obvious drawback.....

Such as RVP at Utd?

Either way, we now have back up in Dzeko (who the manager is heaping praise on - which is wise as he is a confidence player, unlike the previous manager), Negredo (who scored the same amount of goals (excluding penalties) as Falcao last season) and Jovetic.

Far better than the previous two seasons with a Tevez who scored 16 goals in 2 seasons and Balotelli who scored 20 league goals in 2 1/2 seasons with us.

 

[hgblue]

I am merely expressing an opinion. If that makes me a ****, I'm OK with it.

The article the OP quoted drew a negative comparison between last year's transfer dealings and the business done in this window - with an explicit linking reference to Mancini's sacking.

Two points:

Mancini publically stated on several occasions that he was not happy with the transfer business last season. He didn't get the players he wanted and those he did get came too late. The comparison made in the article doesn't float if this fact is considered.

Secondly. The 4 players we have signed are as yet unproven in the Prem. Surely every fan of the club can recall many examples of players with big reputations who didn't deliver - Robinho, Corradi, Jo, Bridge, Berti etc. etc. The signings we have made may well turn out to be the new Silvas and Agueros, nobody hopes so more than me, but the article the OP quotes is making conclusions based on assumptions which are currently unproven.

The holistic revolution is a sea change, no doubt about that. We've moved squarely into the barca and juve model of football - the team on the pitch being the tip of the proverbial iceberg. It's exciting, it's challenging, it has massive potential. But, I will here the plaudits for Holism, transfers and Pellegrini being better than Mancini when we've actually tested that potential. At the moment it's just some hack saying it is.

Mancini didn't get RVP or Hazard

Pellegrini didn't get Cavani or Isco

Mancini sulked and had no fall back plans

See where I am going with this?

-- Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:48 pm --

Stopped reading after the RVP was frankly bollocks line,dress it up all you want after that,about City that is,but thing is the stats don't lie,some people just don't seem to want to acknowledge it that's all

Not only has he acknowledged the stats, he has also gone on to explain to you how our poor stats were detrimental to us retaining the title, and the potential reasons for those poor stats...

And our poor stats would have been unaltered had we signed RVP and not United? RVPs signing by United had no effect on their performance because they scored less goals with RVP than they had without him the season before? Is this a serious argument?

 

[BoyBlue_1985]

Not only has he acknowledged the stats, he has also gone on to explain to you how our poor stats were detrimental to us retaining the title, and the potential reasons for those poor stats...

I know, I have said the same. Are you sure you meant to quote me?

-- Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:31 am --

On rare occasions (Bergkamp, Yaya) Prem clubs do sign top names in their prime from top clubs, but not often at all. So I wouldn't hold my breath over them coming.

Yaya was not a top top name when he came, he had sat on the bench the season previous behind Busquets on the Barca bench and filled in a CB a number of times. The press here called him overpriced when he came if you remember.

And Berkamp had come off two poor seasons, scoring just 11 goals in that time. Berkamp made his name a Arsenal rather than before.

Veron was huge when he went to the rags, Robinho to us was a top name but really they are the only 2 I can think of, maybe Desailly and Zola to Chelsea and Crespo and Makelele later on

 

[Pigeonho]

Not only has he acknowledged the stats, he has also gone on to explain to you how our poor stats were detrimental to us retaining the title, and the potential reasons for those poor stats...

I know, I have said the same. Are you sure you meant to quote me?

-- Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:31 am --

On rare occasions (Bergkamp, Yaya) Prem clubs do sign top names in their prime from top clubs, but not often at all. So I wouldn't hold my breath over them coming.

Yaya was not a top top name when he came, he had sat on the bench the season previous behind Busquets on the Barca bench and filled in a CB a number of times. The press here called him overpriced when he came if you remember.

And Berkamp had come off two poor seasons, scoring just 11 goals in that time. Berkamp made his name a Arsenal rather than before.

Veron was huge when he went to the rags, Robinho to us was a top name but really they are the only 2 I can think of, maybe Desailly and Zola to Chelsea and Crespo and Makelele later on

Casiraghi too.
Klinnsman?

 

[Anonymous]

And our poor stats would have been unaltered had we signed RVP and not United? RVPs signing by United had no effect on their performance because they scored less goals with RVP than they had without him the season before? Is this a serious argument?

We couldn't sign RVP. This is something which seems lost on you and a fair few others. He had no intention of coming to City once United showed their hand. It's really that simple and I'm not sure why it's so difficult to believe. Beyond that had we signed A N Other forward last summer to add to Balo, Tevez, Aguero, short of it being Messi/Ronaldo, nothing would've changed in terms of the way our season went. Our problems were more fundamental than simply not scoring enough.