The Labour Government

bluenova said:
Patronising and ironic ;)

Just because someone has some economic principles (which were a lot less coherent than "Thatcherism" suggests), doesn't mean that they can't have other principles which are pretty much universally considered vile.
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What principles did she have that were considered universally vile at the time?
 
metalblue said:
What principles did she have that were considered universally vile at the time?
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The same economic ones she tagged along with Reagan with that have fucked up the world at this moment in time.

But that's another thread debate.

I'm going to stick to slagging off Stamer but occasionally giving him a tiny bit of credit once in a while.
 
bluenova said:
Patronising and ironic ;)

Just because someone has some economic principles (which were a lot less coherent than "Thatcherism" suggests), doesn't mean that they can't have other principles which are pretty much universally considered vile.
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She won three elections, was the longest serving Prime Minister of the 20th Century and you will find she will is considered in the top 5 or even top 3 of any poll on the UK's greatest Prime Ministers . That's some going for someone whose principles are " pretty much considered universally vile" . I think you are mistakenly identifying Thatcherism as not more than a set of economic principles. Her belief in aspiration , self-reliance , family etc are every bit about social beliefs and policy as much as economics. There is a long way between your beliefs and those who agree with you and " Universal"
 
metalblue said:
What principles did she have that were considered universally vile at the time?
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Pretty sure racism was frowned upon by most people. There have certainly been positive changes in homophobic and sexist attitudes since, but even in the 80s her views were attempting to push things backwards.

Given she only died just over a decade ago, she also had plenty of time to discuss what she regretted in her life, and I'm not aware of any major changes in her views.
 
Scottyboi said:
I don't get your point, he can only play the hand he has been dealt. Infact it is a proper shit argument. Stick to the boomer memes that are as funny as a terminally ill child.
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The point is self evident. The fact that he has a hand at all i.e Trade deal and the ability avoid US sanctions is only possible because we are not in the EU. A position he would not have been in if he had his way.
In regard the memes, be careful you do not become as humourless as Starmer and I do realise that they are unlikely to be appreciated by his fanboys.
 
Hertzblue said:
She won three elections, was the longest serving Prime Minister of the 20th Century and you will find she will is considered in the top 5 or even top 3 of any poll on the UK's greatest Prime Ministers . That's some going for someone whose principles are " pretty much considered universally vile" . I think you are mistakenly identifying Thatcherism as not more than a set of economic principles. Her belief in aspiration , self-reliance , family etc are every bit about social beliefs and policy as much as economics. There is a long way between your beliefs and those who agree with you and " Universal"
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The principles I'd referred to specifically were around her racism, sexism and homophobia. I'd also mentioned that she had supported some pretty vile leaders of other countries, which I believe was partly where the discussion started, due to Starmer's attitude to Trump.

I think she was pretty uncaring in her economic views, but there's nothing in your post (aspiration etc.) that I would consider universally vile. I think most people would agree that societies that are a blend of those beliefs, alongside a more caring attitude, are relatively uncontroversial.
 
bluenova said:
Pretty sure racism was frowned upon by most people. There have certainly been positive changes in homophobic and sexist attitudes since, but even in the 80s her views were attempting to push things backwards.

Given she only died just over a decade ago, she also had plenty of time to discuss what she regretted in her life, and I'm not aware of any major changes in her views.
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What racist principles did she implement? Did she implement policy that denied ethnic minorities education? Healthcare? Justice?

No*

She was openly anti immigration seeing it as a diluting British society- and said as much prior to her victory in 79 so to say “most people” disagreed wouldn’t be backed up by evidence given she was elected. No blacks, no Irish signs weren’t a rare sight. Callaghan was hardly a shining light on immigration either. A sign of the times.



*Thats not to say that ethnic minorities had a great time during the 80s and beyond (and before for that matter), far from it.
 
Hertzblue said:
She won three elections, was the longest serving Prime Minister of the 20th Century and you will find she will is considered in the top 5 or even top 3 of any poll on the UK's greatest Prime Ministers . That's some going for someone whose principles are " pretty much considered universally vile" . I think you are mistakenly identifying Thatcherism as not more than a set of economic principles. Her belief in aspiration , self-reliance , family etc are every bit about social beliefs and policy as much as economics. There is a long way between your beliefs and those who agree with you and " Universal"
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I largely agree with this. It’s not to say her principles didn’t have negative consequences. For example self reliance is great as a principle but it created a wider wealth gap and opportunities weren’t equitable with whole communities being left behind. Blair in his desperation to correct this (a principle) has created a society ever more dependent on state handouts, the unintended consequence here is its allowed firms to keep wages depressed leaving the state to ever more interventions to let people make ends meet. The solution here isn’t to make the wealthy poorer but to make the less well off better off.
 
metalblue said:
What racist principles did she implement? Did she implement policy that denied ethnic minorities education? Healthcare? Justice?

No*

She was openly anti immigration seeing it as a diluting British society- and said as much prior to her victory in 79 so to say “most people” disagreed wouldn’t be backed up by evidence given she was elected. No blacks, no Irish signs weren’t a rare sight. Callaghan was hardly a shining light on immigration either. A sign of the times.



*Thats not to say that ethnic minorities had a great time during the 80s and beyond (and before for that matter), far from it.
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I realise you're a big fan of hers, but if we're arguing that Thatcher wasn't racist, but just a bit concerned about immigration, then I'm not sure there's much more to discuss.
 
bluenova said:
I realise you're a big fan of hers, but if we're arguing that Thatcher wasn't racist, but just a bit concerned about immigration, then I'm not sure there's much more to discuss.
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A big fan? Lol.

You’re the one calling her a principled racist with fuck all evidence to back it up. Yeah we’re done.
 
bluenova said:
I think everyone would agree with that - but then you're dealing with a narcissistic baby man who could cost the country tens of billions if he starts a trade war, or much more if he sides with Putin over Ukraine.

For a cheap photo op, a few buttery phrases, and a nice meal at the Palace, it'll hopefully turn out to be a great deal.
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Oh for an open lift shaft and everyone looking in another direction.
 
Rory Bluelow said:
The effects of climate change will play out differently in different parts of the world.
Countries and blocs will always behave according to their own interests. The UK could sink beneath the waves tomorrow and it wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference to the planet’s climate, it really wouldn’t. There’s been no real debate on the UK’s approach, just a parade of mediocre politicians of different political shades grandstanding for some fucking reason I don’t quite understand and any dissent has been crushed. All this “denier” bollocks to silence any criticism. Climate change is real, man-made climate change is real, but our approach to energy is extremely stupid. We have practically zero real influence in the World and no one that matters will follow. Futile gestures may feel good, but are of no value. Impoverishing ourselves for >0.9% is just silly.
The Chinese, Indians,Yanks, Russians, in fact most of the world only pay lip service to decarbonisation. Many others see as means of economic reset and redistribution of wealth from the Old World. India will get there 30 years later than us …sure they will :) After all, we can trust them implicitly- can’t we ?
“We” are not destroying anyone’s futures - just our own.
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I have had this argument many times before and don't have the energy, people aren't arsed I get it.

If you ever have time and balance try looking up the effects of poor air quality.

I don't accept the argument that we should only be bothered about clean air and water when the Chinese have it all wrapped up in their country. And that extends to the effects of a warming planet to.
 
bluenova said:
I realise you're a big fan of hers, but if we're arguing that Thatcher wasn't racist, but just a bit concerned about immigration, then I'm not sure there's much more to discuss.
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Starmer is concerned about immigration.

Virtually every single mainstream politician is these days.

Are they all racist as well?

Or are we at the point where it’s you that decides who gets called racist or not?
 
franksinatra said:
I would be the first to applaud Starmer efforts, and it looks to be a positive meeting, but with a character like Trump it’s just as likely the next one won’t go well and that won’t be Starmer fault either.

It’s like any interaction with a bully, hard to know what will appease him or cause him to blow up. Hence there is so much uncertainty for Europe and the World moving forward.
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Well even I never expected my comments to be so evident so quickly. Classic bully behaviour.
 
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