The Scottish Politics thread

[mancity2012_eamo]

But support For the SNP in Scotland should not be read as support for Nationalism. Many people who vote for the SNP voted no at the last referendum.

I can relate to that.
Hard to explain to anyone in the UK perhaps, but currently down south, a vote for Sinn Fein is not necessarily a Nationalist vote.
The younger generation are the ones putting them in and any of them I’ve spoken to,don’t give a damn whether NI is part of a 32 county Republic or not.
My own son is now 19. He has a vote in the next election and he has more important issues to him.
He’d have no hang ups about voting for them, unlike myself.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

1m Scots voted to leave the EU, along with 16.1m others in the union and we voted as ONE nation. Do their voices not count towards what Scotland wants?

If they voted that way again in a future referendum and lost, do you think an ideal solution would be to partition the country along the lines of ( I don’t know, off the top of my head) gerrymandering a border further north of the current one and letting those south of it remain in the UK as South Scotland and anything north of it could become The Republic of Scotland.

What could possibly go wrong. I mean it’s Democratic isn’t it, apart from the bit where those not agreeing with the result, decide there not having it.

 

[Metal Biker]

If they voted that way again in a future referendum and lost, do you think an ideal solution would be to partition the country along the lines of ( I don’t know, off the top of my head) gerrymandering a border further north of the current one and letting those south of it remain in the UK as South Scotland and anything north of it could become The Republic of Scotland.

What could post go wrong. I mean it’s Democratic isn’t it, apart from the bit where those not agreeing with the result, decide there not having it.

If that's what they decide, sure. While we're at it, create a Northern and Southern England, rotate the seat of Parliament every year instead of holding it at Westminster. Borders change, they aren't absolute. The people living there decide.

 

[Octavian]

If they voted that way again in a future referendum and lost, do you think an ideal solution would be to partition the country along the lines of ( I don’t know, off the top of my head) gerrymandering a border further north of the current one and letting those south of it remain in the UK as South Scotland and anything north of it could become The Republic of Scotland.

What could possibly go wrong. I mean it’s Democratic isn’t it, apart from the bit where those not agreeing with the result, decide there not having it.

We could get all the loyalists out of NI and dump them in Scotland and then get the Scottish nats out of Scotland and dump them in NI.

Make Ireland unified and crack on.

Problem solved ;-)

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

We could get all the loyalists out of NI and dump them in Scotland and then get the Scottish nats out of Scotland and dump them in NI.

Make Ireland unified and crack on.

Problem solved ;-)

Now if only the reverse hadn’t been done forcibly 400 years ago we’d all be happy.
Who’s idea was the plantations anyway?
What President was in power back then?

 

[Octavian]

Now if only the reverse hadn’t been done forcibly 400 years ago we’d all be happy.
Who’s idea was the plantations anyway?
What President was in power back then?

Wasn’t just us doing that plantations shizzle - the jocks were at it too in what’s now NI.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Wasn’t just us doing that plantations shizzle - the jocks were at it too in what’s now NI.

That’s exactly the point I just made.
The key word I used though was ‘forcibly’. Not solely, but largely Scots were given the land but not any old Scots, they had to be Protestant.
Listen it’s all history and we have reached an agreement through referenda North and South. It’s taken a lot of time and a lot of pain to get to this point and I certainly value the reconciliation and hopefully enough people up North do to.

But this is about the current Scottish issue.

The point of my contribution is that if we learn nothing from the sins of the past then don’t expect forgiveness when repeating them.

That goes to all involved. Wherever in the UK you’re from.

 

[Oldham Exile]

You’ve misunderstood where I am, I’m perfectly happy and actively want you to go your own way. Please do.

Scotland gets more money per head of population to spend and has a designated parliament to sort local issues in Scotland.

If you had the same in the north of England and upped the budget we get then child poverty would reduce more here too.

My point on voting is that it isn’t just about the Tories is it, if Scotland voted Labour then there would be a real chance next time the Tories will lose. Ironically Labour were the only unionist party who agreed to another Scot independent vote

The way this debate develops on here is really quite weird - it seems a sort of phony war to me - because there does not appear to be any posters declaring a view of any sort that Scotland should not have the right to self-determine if they should remain part of the UK.

Anyway - Scottish Politics...............

Setting aside my personal view that when the next vote happens there will be a clear majority to remain within the UK - I would give the SNP a lot of credit for actions that they have taken in recent years to enable a separation to happen should the vote go that way.

We have seen issues that can arise from a single nation separating from a Union after 40+ years due to the development of common policies, systems and processes - well, logically, such a separation would be much harder in a Scotland/UK scenario - especially if there was anything less than whole-hearted support from the UK.

Go back to 2014 and contemplate what would have happened during the years following a 'YES' vote. People comment on matters such as Sterling, border issues, etc. - but an example of a more basic issue would have been that Scotland would have been wholly dependent on UK government departments for support of core processes and systems - the obvious example being DWP for the payments of benefits etc. They would have been paying whatever the UK charged for such support for a decade or more.

SG have quietly got on and embarked on some major programmes/projects to address such dependencies - and the establishment of Social Security Scotland and the managed transfer of benefits has been a really good example of what can be achieved if transition management is committed to with strategic planning, resourcing and funding.

That programme has already reached a stage where if the vote was to be YES in 2022/3 then they can be fully decoupled from DWP.

As an aside - having witnessed the approach and policies of Social Security Scotland on a wide range of benefits, I see there to be such a marked difference between theirs and the UK's.

The emphasis of SSS is so much more claimant centric and supporting of claimants - rather than the DWP's drive to reduce and decline payments. I would consider their approach to be consistent with the principles of all Labour supporters on here - far more care and empathy shown to claimants.

There are a lot more examples that SG are driving forward on that would make separation 'doable' - including within Revenue Scotland - but what has been achieved in Social Security I think deserves massive credit.

 

[Octavian]

That’s exactly the point I just made.
The key word I used though was ‘forcibly’. Not solely, but largely Scots were given the land but not any old Scots, they had to be Protestant.
Listen it’s all history and we have reached an agreement through referenda North and South. It’s taken a lot of time and a lot of pain to get to this point and I certainly value the reconciliation and hopefully enough people up North do to.

But this is about the current Scottish issue.

The point of my contribution is that if we learn nothing from the sins of the past then don’t expect forgiveness when repeating them.

That goes to all involved. Wherever in the UK you’re from.

My last two replies have been tongue in cheek, I’m not being 100% serious with relocation of people to sort unhappiness in the union out.

I think Scotland needs another vote and so does England. The problem for me is NI as a vote there could open up a can of worms.. very nasty and violent worms.

 

[Oldham Exile]

........................the last straw was voting no at the last referendum as ‘the only way to retain EU membership’ and then........

I think for that reason alone - but also a good number of others as well - there should be agreement during this parliament on a date for a 2nd indy-referendum.

A lot has been made of the fact the 2014 vote was a 'once in a lifetime' vote - but the 2016 referendum had such fundamental impact to the 'key assumptions' of the 2014 vote it means that a further vote is certainly needed.

I do not see anyone suggesting a 2nd vote should not take place