The Scottish Politics thread

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My perception is that the only opposition to the SNP is their own factionalism. Alex Salmond out for revenge over “wee nippy.”

Tories and labour seem to be persona non gratis and whatever happened to the Scottish Socialist party?

What are the genuine political options or is it just as bleak up there as it is down here?
 
I think you can pretty much sum up Scottish politics by saying, if in doubt, blame the English. The other 1% of issues sort themselves out.
 
mat said:
My perception is that the only opposition to the SNP is their own factionalism. Alex Salmond out for revenge over “wee nippy.”

Tories and labour seem to be persona non gratis and whatever happened to the Scottish Socialist party?

What are the genuine political options or is it just as bleak up there as it is down here?
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The biggest factor in their recent success is probably that they are not tories and labour are in a shit state. I think you are right about factionalism - It turns out that Salmond wasnt a touchy pest after all and there has been a pretty dark campaign against him. Seems to be keeping his powder dry for now though and has gone very quiet.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
The biggest factor in their recent success is probably that they are not tories and labour are in a shit state. I think you are right about factionalism - It turns out that Salmond wasnt a touchy pest after all and there has been a pretty dark campaign against him. Seems to be keeping his powder dry for now though and has gone very quiet.
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It’s one to keep an eye on. Allegations of perjury and super injunctions abound.
 
Great! Yet another echo chamber thread where the handful of english nationalists can vent their bile.
Can it not be merged with the indy thread that has long ago become just that, or have they managed to bore even themselves off it?
 
Coatigan said:
Great! Yet another echo chamber thread where the handful of english nationalists can vent their bile.
Can it not be merged with the indy thread that has long ago become just that, or have they managed to bore even themselves off it?
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More of a tantrum than a coherent opinion, but thanks all the same. I'm assuming the idea of an economy based on the price of oil may need a little reworking anyway.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
More of a tantrum than a coherent opinion, but thanks all the same. I'm assuming the idea of an economy based on the price of oil may need a little reworking anyway.
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I've given up coherence on this or any loosely related topics (never having actually argued a case for independence btw), having been met with nothing but continuous tantrums, and verbetum entrenched blinkered cliches. Only wandered on with the feintest hope there might be something different or more mature, but nope, same nonsense.
So, enjoy it, rant away with meaningless detached and centuries outdated guff.
 
Coatigan said:
I've given up coherence on this or any loosely related topics (never having actually argued a case for independence btw), having been met with nothing but continuous tantrums, and verbetum entrenched blinkered cliches. Only wandered on with the feintest hope there might be something different or more mature, but nope, same nonsense.
So, enjoy it, rant away with meaningless detached and centuries outdated guff.
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Will do, cheers.
 
Coatigan said:
Great! Yet another echo chamber thread where the handful of english nationalists can vent their bile.
Can it not be merged with the indy thread that has long ago become just that, or have they managed to bore even themselves off it?
Click to expand...

I was hoping this would be a thread where mature discussion would take place. Makes me ashamed to have born in this country. The past couple of years huge political shift even more so.

I was looking for some insight and understanding on what's going on up there rather than the spoon fed media and social media bollocks.
 
Just listening to the Scottish briefing and University fees came up wondered if free education for students from EU states still happens.
 
mat said:
I was hoping this would be a thread where mature discussion would take place. Makes me ashamed to have born in this country. The past couple of years huge political shift even more so.

I was looking for some insight and understanding on what's going on up there rather than the spoon fed media and social media bollocks.
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So it is as you described. Labour, Tory and Lib Dem pretty much irrelevant at present. Nicki will have more problems with her own party than the others. I'm not sure how the Salmon stuff will unravel. Whist he was found not guilty, he is by no means faultless. He is a pretty unlikeable individual and is one of the main reasons the nats get the reputation as being anti english (he certainly was and didn't try that hard to hide it). Imo Nicola is a far more capable politician. She will also come under pressure from the party regarding the timing of indy ref 2 (there is a faction that believes she is not fast enough). Whatever, right now she has pretty high credibility and poll ratings through her handling of COVID, despite the fact that their were similar issues with timing of lockdown, PPE and care homes. Her communication with the Scottish people has been clear, consistent and adult.

So I think if there are Scottish elections next year, SNP will show a very strong performance which shouldn't be seen particularly as a mandate for indy ref 2 (but will be) but that they are the preferred party of government in Scotland despite a pretty shoddy performance in the last parliamentary session (Education in particular).

In terms of independence. Its very much about head and heart. On the heart side, Johnson has ensured that even former tory voting centralists like me would vote for independence just to get away from his dishonest and corrupt government. A great deal of people who voted no last time would be thinking very seriously about it now.

However, and it is huge however, set against that is the fact that many scots will want to see the independence proposals. The practical stuff. Financial, Currency, Central Bank, the overall plan, the relationship with Europe, the relationship with the remainder of the UK. Some extremely meaty stuff in there. I have had a number of sensible discussions about independence on here, so not everyone looks at this in an unintelligent way. Some of those that I have conversed with previously underestimate the damage that this Tory party has inflicted on the Union. Another two years of Johnson and his sycophants may just seal the deal. Many of us would pay through the nose just to be free of his politics.
Stand back and wait for the flame throwers ;-)
 
Saddleworth2 said:
So it is as you described. Labour, Tory and Lib Dem pretty much irrelevant at present. Nicki will have more problems with her own party than the others. I'm not sure how the Salmon stuff will unravel. Whist he was found not guilty, he is by no means faultless. He is a pretty unlikeable individual and is one of the main reasons the nats get the reputation as being anti english (he certainly was and didn't try that hard to hide it). Imo Nicola is a far more capable politician. She will also come under pressure from the party regarding the timing of indy ref 2 (there is a faction that believes she is not fast enough). Whatever, right now she has pretty high credibility and poll ratings through her handling of COVID, despite the fact that their were similar issues with timing of lockdown, PPE and care homes. Her communication with the Scottish people has been clear, consistent and adult.

So I think if there are Scottish elections next year, SNP will show a very strong performance which shouldn't be seen particularly as a mandate for indy ref 2 (but will be) but that they are the preferred party of government in Scotland despite a pretty shoddy performance in the last parliamentary session (Education in particular).

In terms of independence. Its very much about head and heart. On the heart side, Johnson has ensured that even former tory voting centralists like me would vote for independence just to get away from his dishonest and corrupt government. A great deal of people who voted no last time would be thinking very seriously about it now.

However, and it is huge however, set against that is the fact that many scots will want to see the independence proposals. The practical stuff. Financial, Currency, Central Bank, the overall plan, the relationship with Europe, the relationship with the remainder of the UK. Some extremely meaty stuff in there. I have had a number of sensible discussions about independence on here, so not everyone looks at this in an unintelligent way. Some of those that I have conversed with previously underestimate the damage that this Tory party has inflicted on the Union. Another two years of Johnson and his sycophants may just seal the deal. Many of us would pay through the nose just to be free of his politics.
Stand back and wait for the flame throwers ;-)
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That’s pretty much my position. Last vote I voted no, and would say I was 60/40 no, the EU being a big reason. Brexit made me pretty much 50/50 but would have liked to see a soft brexit and would still have voted no. Johnson, his approach to Brexit , and his performance since he came back from his own illness not to mention yesterday would be 60 / 40 Yes if we had a referendum tomorrow.
As impressive as Sturgeon has been though and as high as her approval rating is she can’t be the reason to support independence as we don’t know who follows her. As it is though I’m so disillusioned with English politics and politicians and the way the ideological wing just wanting to leave the eu at any cost. When the SNP win with maybe a bigger vote share, Ruth Davidson was the only barrier to that, and ask the question think my answer will be yes, even more telling so would my wife and she was very anti last time and scoffed at me even thinking about yes in passing last time.
 
I sat on the fence previous to the last referendum and done quite a bit of research into the pros and cons. That pushed me quite considerably towards voting yes. Now I would say I am passionately yes after what has transpired over the last few years.

Saddleworth - you hit the nail on the head with stating that the Tories are corrupt and dishonest. Looking at guys like Alastair Burt blocking a private members bill for cheap NHS drug patents is nothing short of criminal. It soon transpired he has vested interests in pharmaceuticals. This is the same guy that blocked the bill on making upskirting illegal. The Tories seem to be an never ending cascade of negligence and corruption.

The vote no campaign was a massively funded campaign of fear, which worked. However the lies are now evident, we are now out of Europe, which Scotland clearly has no interest in leaving. This was one of the primary focus points for vote no. Targeting pensions and false claims of financial ruin have all but been debunked since. This leaves quite a number of people who are angry at voting for one thing and getting the complete opposite.

I think in general this right-wing direction the UK seems to be taking is damaging and worrying. This 'Ye Auld Empire' mentality that we are somehow superior to the rest of Europe is ridiculous. But it seems the the general consensus South of London. It is clear that the will of Scotland and London are growing ever wider apart.

My honest opinion of Corporate London is that it's a snakes nest rampant with villainy and scum. Complete and utter disdain not only for Scotland, but the entire north of England, Wales and NI.
 
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Vicious111 said:
The vote no campaign was a massively funded campaign of fear, which worked. However the lies are now evident, we are now out of Europe, which Scotland clearly has no interest in leaving. This was one of the primary focus points for vote no. Targeting pensions and false claims of financial ruin have all but been debunked since. This leaves quite a number of people who are angry at voting for one thing and getting the complete opposite.
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Still a long way to go imo mate. The virus has knocked seven bells out of the Scottish economy so that is unhelpful to say the least. The case still has to be made and I am not certain that the EU would welcome us back with open arms unless we can demonstrate a viable economy (albeit we cant be any worse than Italy and Spain ;-)). The practical detail of currency, fiscal governance and central bank needs to be worked through as does the divorce detail from the UK. Bloody chunky stuff. On the plus side, I think there is a greater support for making it work than there was the first time round and a realisation that sacrifices will need to be made. We have also become leading country in Europe for renewable energy.

I used to work in the city mate, and we are not all snakes or even villains :-).
 
Hard to see how a further five to ten years of economic hardship are going to help heal the divisions. The circumstances after 2014 changed fundamentally with Brexit, and the circumstances after Brexit have changed fundamentally, too, but whichever Union its people favours, Scotland is going to be extremely weak and dependent on either Westminster or Brussels for the foreseeable future. Both of those places, however, have enormous problems on their plates already, which as we’ve seen before often leads to them taking their eyes off ‘side’ issues and then acting surprised when problems arise.
 
Gabriel said:
Hard to see how a further five to ten years of economic hardship are going to help heal the divisions. The circumstances after 2014 changed fundamentally with Brexit, and the circumstances after Brexit have changed fundamentally, too, but whichever Union its people favours, Scotland is going to be extremely weak and dependent on either Westminster or Brussels for the foreseeable future. Both of those places, however, have enormous problems on their plates already, which as we’ve seen before often leads to them taking their eyes off ‘side’ issues and then acting surprised when problems arise.
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There is a bit of me that wonders whether the EU/European leaders would welcome Scotland as a final 'fuck you' to Westminster. Of course there is no certainty that Scotland will even be 'allowed' to hold a further referendum in the term of this Tory government.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
There is a bit of me that wonders whether the EU/European leaders would welcome Scotland as a final 'fuck you' to Westminster. Of course there is no certainty that Scotland will even be 'allowed' to hold a further referendum in the term of this Tory government.
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The EU will always welcome Scotland, but it will do so as a potential Member in its own right which shares the ideals of the Union and can contribute to its development; the EU would benefit strategically but has no need to accept Scotland simply to antagonise Westminster.

The harsh reality now is that any future membership of the EU would be markedly different from that envisaged before. The EU is likely to move to greater and faster political union in the next 5-10 years- its Members simply have nowhere else to turn- and that will increasingly require nations to conform to Brussels, both economically and politically. If Scotland still wished to join, it would have to go through extremely painful changes and surrender much more of its ‘independence’.

Similarly, the post-Brexit world envisioned by those currently in control of Westminster no longer appears to exist. The United States and China are entrenching and using rhetoric that sounds eerily like that of the Cold War, and the idea that there will be international free trade and great deals to be had seems fanciful. The deepest ever depression looms, a No Deal/Bad Deal Brexit awaits, which will exacerbate the economic situation, and then a weakened U.K. will find that it needs to cut deals with much more powerful entities.

Scotland will get its share of any benefits but it will also get its share of the pain. Its people will look back wistfully to what could have been in 2014 and look forward to what might be one day, though I agree with you not any time soon. Tragically melancholic, alas, but then that’s what Scots know most and best.
 
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