mexico1970
Well-Known Member
IT'S A BIG COUNTRY!!!!!
Today's shooting in America thread
- Thread starter Mad Eyed Screamer
- Start date
IT'S A BIG COUNTRY!!!!!
I haven't read every post so can't speak to what others have said, but yeah I'd be shocked if the US didn't have significantly higher homicide rates than the UK (as your graph shows). If that's the point you're trying to make than I completely agree. As to why there's probably a million reasons. I think everyone in this thread is arguing different things.
mexico1970
Well-Known Member
We can agree that there are reasons mate, this started by someone suggesting that living in the UK is more dangerous, under no metric is that correct.
The only evidence presented was "I know it is". Apparently you can build a house in the USA too and even buy land.
Got it - don't know what others have said but yeah there's no way the UK is more dangerous. If I saw that post I'd have the same reaction as you. I should've scrolled back further
Similar to how a few based in the US have mentioned on here regarding guns, if you know where to avoid you never see any trouble.
Same here with pubs. You know the ones where it kicks off, the ones where the dickheads go. You just stay clear of those places. Some people choose not to for some reason.
ChicagoBlue
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 10 Jan 2009
- Messages
- 18,331
Yes and yes, but it’s a small percentage of people who have the legal guns and a sliver of the population that is involved in gun crime.
In a population of 330,000,000, we have well over 330,000,000 guns, but gun ownership varies dramatically by sex, location, and type of weapon.
1. The demographics of gun ownership
Understanding gun ownership in America is not as simple as knowing who does and does not own a gun. Some Americans who don’t personally own guns live with
www.pewresearch.org
(Sorry that’s 7 yrs old, but I’m sure it’s still pertinent for the discussion.)
One of the problems Europeans have is that they just can’t get their heads around the fact that guns are constitutionally protected in this young country born of an armed revolution and settled by force. It is literally a birthright to be able to own a gun.
Given that as a backdrop, all the moral arguments of “less guns, less violence” sounds so simple in its logic, but it’s a fallacy at which Americans scoff because the biggest problem with gun crime is not the ubiquity, it is the “who and where” that create the problem.
Add to that the fact that most of the gun crime is commuted with illegal weapons, even though they’re legal to own.
Given those facts, talk of restricting gun ownership now sounds like law enforcement is trying to take away the rights of a law-abiding citizenry, when it is the scofflaws that are perpetuating the problem.
Lastly, the right to own guns is not to protect one from the burglar or the attacker, but the government and tyranny.
While that might sound ridiculous given the firepower the government can bring to bear to uphold the law, it is nonetheless a foundational right instilled by the Founding Fathers themselves. Now, I understand even that sentence sounds silly to many Brits, but many Americans would point to the monarchy and the sordid history of Britain and say, “Physician heal thyself!”
And round and round we go…
Let’s just agree that Brits will always point and laugh, saying/thinking, “Look at those idiots playing Cowboy centuries after they won the War of Independence and got what they wanted!” and Americans will always say, “We fought for our freedom FROM you, so we’ll be damned if we’ll allow a dead empire run by inbreds to attempt any moral superiority over us, especially after saving the German Royal Family and the British people that bow to them from a different group of Germans just last century!”
…or words to that effect.
Well looking at that, there are plenty of areas of desert and mountains where no shooting happen, so that's not bad really.... ;-)
jim tolmies perm
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 1 Aug 2007
- Messages
- 2,519
Thanks , I do get the constitutional, historical and cultural context of what your saying.Yes and yes, but it’s a small percentage of people who have the legal guns and a sliver of the population that is involved in gun crime.
In a population of 330,000,000, we have well over 330,000,000 guns, but gun ownership varies dramatically by sex, location, and type of weapon.
1. The demographics of gun ownership
Understanding gun ownership in America is not as simple as knowing who does and does not own a gun. Some Americans who don’t personally own guns live with
(Sorry that’s 7 yrs old, but I’m sure it’s still pertinent for the discussion.)
One of the problems Europeans have is that they just can’t get their heads around the fact that guns are constitutionally protected in this young country born of an armed revolution and settled by force. It is literally a birthright to be able to own a gun.
Given that as a backdrop, all the moral arguments of “less guns, less violence” sounds so simple in its logic, but it’s a fallacy at which Americans scoff because the biggest problem with gun crime is not the ubiquity, it is the “who and where” that create the problem.
Add to that the fact that most of the gun crime is commuted with illegal weapons, even though they’re legal to own.
Given those facts, talk of restricting gun ownership now sounds like law enforcement is trying to take away the rights of a law-abiding citizenry, when it is the scofflaws that are perpetuating the problem.
Lastly, the right to own guns is not to protect one from the burglar or the attacker, but the government and tyranny.
While that might sound ridiculous given the firepower the government can bring to bear to uphold the law, it is nonetheless a foundational right instilled by the Founding Fathers themselves. Now, I understand even that sentence sounds silly to many Brits, but many Americans would point to the monarchy and the sordid history of Britain and say, “Physician heal thyself!”
And round and round we go…
Let’s just agree that Brits will always point and laugh, saying/thinking, “Look at those idiots playing Cowboy centuries after they won the War of Independence and got what they wanted!” and Americans will always say, “We fought for our freedom FROM you, so we’ll be damned if we’ll allow a dead empire run by inbreds to attempt any moral superiority over us, especially after saving the German Royal Family and the British people that bow to them from a different group of Germans just last century!”
…or words to that effect.
Having said that a lot of it comes down to a constitution written 235 years ago which is , imho , no longer fit for purpose, but which also has little or no chance of being amended any time soon due to vested interests and the complete polorization of political debate in both houses.
Bill Walker
Well-Known Member
I've never seen the point of this thread tbh. Except for people to sneer at America for some reason. Yes they have a gun culture but it's their business how they run things and it's UK's business how they run things, and not sneer as if superior.
When I lived in the US I never worried about getting shot, I lived in a nice beachside suburb which to me seemed like heaven compared to the town I grew up in. I don't think MES or Idaho even think twice about it.
At the end of the day all us English speaking countries should have respect for each other, we're on the same side and would fight together in a world war. We should respect each other, not slag each other off like this.
All countries have their own particular problems.
When I lived in the US I never worried about getting shot, I lived in a nice beachside suburb which to me seemed like heaven compared to the town I grew up in. I don't think MES or Idaho even think twice about it.
At the end of the day all us English speaking countries should have respect for each other, we're on the same side and would fight together in a world war. We should respect each other, not slag each other off like this.
All countries have their own particular problems.
Mass shootings have happened in a bar, cinema, yoga class, elementary school, high school, university campus, baseball practice, church, a concert, a gaming competition, outdoor mall, neighbourhood party, bank, supermarket, library, newsroom, nightclub, synagogue, dance studio....
"It's all right lads, we'll just avoid the places with gun crime, you've just got to know where to go."
The idea that as an individual you do not fear gun crime therefore it isn't a problem is about as myopic as it gets. The point of this thread is not to sneer at America but to surely create debate around the astounding stupidity of allowing citizens to own weapons designed solely to kill. It's fucking bonkers. And the increasing normalisation of it is equally bonkers.
I'm not in the "UK is less violent than US" camp by the way.
I am in the "WTF are you doing to stop children being gunned down in class" camp. And if the answer boils down to fuck all, then you're doing something wrong.
"It's all right lads, we'll just avoid the places with gun crime, you've just got to know where to go."
The idea that as an individual you do not fear gun crime therefore it isn't a problem is about as myopic as it gets. The point of this thread is not to sneer at America but to surely create debate around the astounding stupidity of allowing citizens to own weapons designed solely to kill. It's fucking bonkers. And the increasing normalisation of it is equally bonkers.
I'm not in the "UK is less violent than US" camp by the way.
I am in the "WTF are you doing to stop children being gunned down in class" camp. And if the answer boils down to fuck all, then you're doing something wrong.