Today's shooting in America thread

Why should I voluntarily give up my guns FogBlueInSanFran, for what reason?

I have a legitimate use for mine, along with legitimate licensed ownership.

As I've said before, this country along with many others have gun ownership, but with strict regulation and control, yet don't have the mass shootings experienced in the US.

If people want to kill people, they will, whether it's with a knife or a vehicle, you won't stop the radical or mentally ill. Based on the evidence worldwide, efficiently restricting guns would be the place to start in the US.
That you have to ask that question is precisely the problem. If someone said to me, hand in your guns (which are ostensibly just toys manufactured to kill), and you'll spare hundreds of children being gunned down each year, I'd do it in a fucking heartbeat. The millions that are refusing to give up a constitutional vestige of a barbaric, uncivilised age are indirectly responsible for these mass shootings. Some degree of accountability should be placed at their feet.

It's the 21st Century, the cultist fascination America has with firearms is degenerate.
 
So in summary they need an American Civil War II.

Well there are some who openly want it like white nationalists:



But they fail to realize that if anyone thinks it'll be blues and grays again.. they're dreaming.

Not even feasible to invade other states because it's hard to convince 300 pound Americans who live in mom's basements to get away from their playstation or xbox!

Hence all this talk about an easy national divorce and just moving if you don't like where you're at.

It's the pogroms that scare me though..
 
I already explained precisely why like six times. That such a message has literally no impact and I have to repeat myself is exactly why the problem is unsolvable.

There isn’t one single gunowner — not ONE — who thinks his/her own specific demand for the product is part of the problem.
I am NOT part of the problem.

You are proposing an idealistic, unrealistic and unworkable option, when other options have been proven to work while still allowing gun ownership.

Perhaps other options adopted by many other countries in the world wouldn't work in the US, I don't know, but in my view, based on the evidence elsewhere, it would be a place to start if there was a desire to.

Me owning a gun in this country is not a problem to anybody and the facts are there for you to see.
 
I am NOT part of the problem.

You are proposing an idealistic, unrealistic and unworkable option, when other options have been proven to work while still allowing gun ownership.

Perhaps other options adopted by many other countries in the world wouldn't work in the US, I don't know, but in my view, based on the evidence elsewhere, it would be a place to start if there was a desire to.

Me owning a gun in this country is not a problem to anybody and the facts are there for you to see.
So let me get this straight.

You — one person — saying “I’m going to walk away from my gun volunatarily” is idealistic, unworkable and unrealistic.

I’m not talking about anyone else. You, personally.

But you won’t do it.

Maybe you can’t do it.

You are clearly a rational law-abiding person, who believes guns should be heavily restricted. But you won’t give up yours.

Ok, so if you can’t do it, or won’t do it, who will?

No one.

But that’s not a problem?

Somewhere in this string of logic you lose me.
 
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Why should I voluntarily give up my guns FogBlueInSanFran, for what reason?

I have a legitimate use for mine, along with legitimate licensed ownership.

As I've said before, this country along with many others have gun ownership, but with strict regulation and control, yet don't have the mass shootings experienced in the US.

If people want to kill people, they will, whether it's with a knife or a vehicle, you won't stop the radical or mentally ill. Based on the evidence worldwide, efficiently restricting guns would be the place to start in the US.
This classic rears it head again. For a start, i’d wager the amount of mass fatality incidents at schools would be a little different if they were trying it with cars or knives…
 
The Problem the U.S.A faces that other countries don't seem to face are threefold.
1. The easy access to guns, especially assault rifles.
2. The seemingly bonkers laws that go with it, like that bloke shooting in a road rage incident that got away with it or when Scottish revelers got shot dead for daring to ring someone's door bell.
3. As pointed out in the brilliant 'bowling for columbine' The weird American psyche of thinking everyone is against them and are about to be attacked, driven by the media, so are always on high alert and trigger happy.
 
So let me get this straight.

You — one person — saying “I’m going to walk away from my gun volunatarily” is idealistic, unworkable and unrealistic.

I’m not talking about anyone else. You, personally.

But you won’t do it.

Maybe you can’t do it.

A rational law-abiding person, who believes guns should be heavily restricted (just not YOUR gun or your ability — let’s call it desire — to own a gun). But you can’t give up yours.

So if you can’t do it, or won’t do it, who will?

No one.

But that’s not a problem. You’re not part of the problem.

Somewhere in this string of logic you lose me.
"Maybe you can't do it"

Of course I could, but what do you suggest for control when I do?

Are you going to suggest I trap the squirrels or poison the crows, because I'm very much against both. Perhaps ask Mr. Coyote politely to not give the lambs and ewes a grisly, horrendous death, because his tracks suggest he's weighing up his opportunities and as sure as Tuesday follows Monday, he's going to in the near future.


I guess my response is why should I give it up?

As I've pointed out, unlike the US, I live in a country where firearms are fairly prolific, but well regulated and we don't have the issues that the US does.

It's obviously not because guns were banned, so my question to you is.....

Why do we (and other countries), with all our guns, not have the problem the US does?
 
This classic rears it head again. For a start, i’d wager the amount of mass fatality incidents at schools would be a little different if they were trying it with cars or knives…
I agree Claytop, but why these mass fatalities in the US?

Many other countries have guns, but don't have the same constant issues.
 
I am NOT part of the problem.

...

Me owning a gun in this country is not a problem to anybody and the facts are there for you to see.
The little innocent Olivia Pratt-Korbel would still be alive if the evil shooter didn't own a gun. Sure, it's not your problem.
 
"Maybe you can't do it"

Of course I could, but what do you suggest for control when I do?

Are you going to suggest I trap the squirrels or poison the crows, because I'm very much against both. Perhaps ask Mr. Coyote politely to not give the lambs and ewes a grisly, horrendous death, because his tracks suggest he's weighing up his opportunities and as sure as Tuesday follows Monday, he's going to in the near future.


I guess my response is why should I give it up?

As I've pointed out, unlike the US, I live in a country where firearms are fairly prolific, but well regulated and we don't have the issues that the US does.

It's obviously not because guns were banned, so my question to you is.....

Why do we (and other countries), with all our guns, not have the problem the US does?
Because maybe, just maybe, having to poison or trap squirrels, and heaven forbid, losing some of your livestock, are prices worth paying if it stops children being slaughtered in mass shootings every other month? Does that answer your question?
 
The Problem the U.S.A faces that other countries don't seem to face are threefold.
1. The easy access to guns, especially assault rifles.
2. The seemingly bonkers laws that go with it, like that bloke shooting in a road rage incident that got away with it or when Scottish revelers got shot dead for daring to ring someone's door bell.
3. As pointed out in the brilliant 'bowling for columbine' The weird American psyche of thinking everyone is against them and are about to be attacked, driven by the media, so are always on high alert and trigger happy.
Bowling for Columbine is exceptional. Watched it again the other night.

It's dejecting that almost 25 years after that massacre nothing has been done to arrest the preventable bloodshed.
 
"Maybe you can't do it"

Of course I could, but what do you suggest for control when I do?

Are you going to suggest I trap the squirrels or poison the crows, because I'm very much against both. Perhaps ask Mr. Coyote politely to not give the lambs and ewes a grisly, horrendous death, because his tracks suggest he's weighing up his opportunities and as sure as Tuesday follows Monday, he's going to in the near future.


I guess my response is why should I give it up?

As I've pointed out, unlike the US, I live in a country where firearms are fairly prolific, but well regulated and we don't have the issues that the US does.

It's obviously not because guns were banned, so my question to you is.....

Why do we (and other countries), with all our guns, not have the problem the US does?
Haha, give it up bud, the term pissing in the wind comes to mind
 
"Maybe you can't do it"

Of course I could, but what do you suggest for control when I do?

Are you going to suggest I trap the squirrels or poison the crows, because I'm very much against both. Perhaps ask Mr. Coyote politely to not give the lambs and ewes a grisly, horrendous death, because his tracks suggest he's weighing up his opportunities and as sure as Tuesday follows Monday, he's going to in the near future.


I guess my response is why should I give it up?

As I've pointed out, unlike the US, I live in a country where firearms are fairly prolific, but well regulated and we don't have the issues that the US does.

It's obviously not because guns were banned, so my question to you is.....

Why do we (and other countries), with all our guns, not have the problem the US does?
I don't know how you solve the problems in your garden. Apparently there are solutions though.

I already explained why you should give it up. Because a drop in demand for guns eventually solves the problem. Just like cigarettes. Just like literally any product.

My solution by definition works if all current law-abiding gun owners self-sacrifice. It works less well if only a handful of people do it, but it still works better than nothing. Those of us who don't own guns have already made the sacrifice so I'm not being hypocritical.

Whereas your solution of greater regulation or higher taxes or insurance or higher fines/penalties or mandatory gun buybacks or whatever all make sense, and I agree with all of them, but they have not, and (IMO) cannot and (IMO) will not pass legislative muster here in the US. It's strange to me that you support all of this -- it would harm you financially, time-wise, legal-risk wise, but does nothing to me as a non-gunowner.

As far as US problems vs. the rest of the world, I don't know either, but it would certainly make sense that gun proliferation is a part of the reason, given that impulse control problems can be more dangerous with guns than without, and we all have impulse control problems. You made the point earlier that Canada has 71% fewer firearms person than the US. I am certain the types of firearm allowed are also more restricted there.

It does beg the question that if the Canadian government banned the weapons you owned, what would you do?
 
Because maybe, just maybe, having to poison or trap squirrels, and heaven forbid, losing some of your livestock, are prices worth paying if it stops children being slaughtered in mass shootings every other month? Does that answer your question?
No it doesn't.

Perhaps you should provide an answer to my question asking why other countries with strong gun ownership, yet have effective regulation and gun control, DO NOT have the same mass shooting issues that the US do, instead of spouting off hysterically adding no solutions or ideas to the problem, except 'ban guns!!'

With respect to FogBlueInSanFran, although we do sit on opposite sides of the fence on this, he does at least put forward a constructive argument and offer solutions.

Why don't you give that a go and provide an answer to my question above. I put it in bold to make it easier for you.
 
I don't know how you solve the problems in your garden. Apparently there are solutions though.

I already explained why you should give it up. Because a drop in demand for guns eventually solves the problem. Just like cigarettes. Just like literally any product.

My solution by definition works if all current law-abiding gun owners self-sacrifice. It works less well if only a handful of people do it, but it still works better than nothing. Those of us who don't own guns have already made the sacrifice so I'm not being hypocritical.

Whereas your solution of greater regulation or higher taxes or insurance or higher fines/penalties or mandatory gun buybacks or whatever all make sense, and I agree with all of them, but they have not, and (IMO) cannot and (IMO) will not pass legislative muster here in the US. It's strange to me that you support all of this -- it would harm you financially, time-wise, legal-risk wise, but does nothing to me as a non-gunowner.

As far as US problems vs. the rest of the world, I don't know either, but it would certainly make sense that gun proliferation is a part of the reason, given that impulse control problems can be more dangerous with guns than without, and we all have impulse control problems. You made the point earlier that Canada has 71% fewer firearms person than the US. I am certain the types of firearm allowed are also more restricted there.

It does beg the question that if the Canadian government banned the weapons you owned, what would you do?
I don't know how you solve the problems in your garden. Apparently there are solutions though.
There are solutions, but I don't care for them. If I am going to shoot a bird or animal, I want it dead, not suffering or slowly dying in a trap or by other means. Coyotes are much more deadly and much more of a challenge with few options apart from shooting. I suppose an argument for using a bow could be used, but I'm not at all proficient in using one.

....will not pass legislative muster here in the US.
I can't offer a solution if legislation won't be made to regulate or control firearm ownership. The idea of banning or voluntary self-sacrifice wouldn't materialize either. On average 710 people die from horse riding, I don't think the suggestion of banning horse riding would work either, much like gun ownership.

....gun proliferation is a part of the reason
I'm not convinced that the very basic argument that gun proliferation is the issue is correct. If it were, then it would seem realistic to expect a greater number of mass shootings in other countries.

It does beg the question that if the Canadian government banned the weapons you owned, what would you do?
Ah, an interesting question. They have already banned many types of guns, not that I'm at all interested in owning an AR-15, I have no use for one. Recently I was going to take up pistol shooting, but Prince Trudeau banned the sale of them, so that knocked that idea on the head. It won't affect gun crime in any way, but does appease his peeps.

The Liberals did try to bring in legislation to ban centrefire rifles etc, which would have included one of mine, but back tracked following the reaction. Had it gone through, then I'd have to see what process they put in place. With us having a well regulated gun control system in place, they know what guns I have and they know what ammunition I have bought, when and where from, so it's not as though I can hide it or deny ownership.

I wouldn't voluntarily give up my guns, because there is no reason for me to do so.
 

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