UK far right trouble

[mackenzie]

Firstly, you're not required to believe in anything.

Two questions. What do you define as British culture or Britishness? And do you think any of this Britishness is eroding?

What do you define it as?

 

[The perfect fumble]

Firstly, you're not required to believe in anything.

You do if you want to get on, if you don't want to be marginalised, ostracised or even cancelled. The two most successful ethnic groups in this country, measured in academic achievement and prosperity, are British Chinese and British Indians, somewhere down the bottom of this scale you'll find Bangladeshis, white working class young men are not doing too well on this scale either. None of this has to do with ethnicity, but it has everything to do with culture and the ability, or otherwise, of various groups to identify the prevailing culture in this country, what to swerve and what to grab, and make it work for them.

I grew up in a poor working class family in Lower Broughton in Salford, I had instilled in me from an early age two things, get educated and get out, not just from Lower Broughton, but out of the working class all together and into the professions.

Two questions. What do you define as British culture or Britishness? And do you think any of this Britishness is eroding?

You're missing the point, what defines British culture, or Italian, French, German, or Greek culture doesn't matter so much, it changes over time, what matters for a harmonious society is whatever the prevailing culture of a country might be at any one time, it is a set of values that the vast majority of folk in that country recognise and feel an affinity with, what defines them in their hearts and minds as British or French or Greek, shared values that unite them.

Multiculturalism is the exact opposite of this, it states all cultures are equal, there is no prevailing culture and even if there were, to integrate is a betrayal of your own cultural identity. We all know the slurs hurled at black people for acting like white folk and there are many other such slurs used by various ethnic groups for those who dare to bend with the prevailing wind to get on.

Multiculturalism creates a self reinforcing ghetto mentality, us and them, this perpetuates ignorance that can turn to anger, fear of one group swamping another, all nicely stoked up by the manufactured outrage of right wing bad faith actors.

And don't believe the line from the left either who see everything through the prism of class, that it's all deliberate, a contrived artificial scarcity of resources for the poor, so that different ethnic groups fight each other over scraps, while the fat cats play divide and rule.

While it is undoubtedly true that class is the single biggest determinant of life chances, multiculturalism exacerbates this, hindering struggling ethnic groups from developing class solidarity outside their group, preventing them from recognising they have more in common with the poor white bloke down the road than they might think, except all too often nowadays the white bloke isn't there, and even if he were, everyone is too busy living in their self reinforcing cultural bubble.

 

[BobKowalski]

You do if you want to get on, if you don't want to be marginalised, ostracised or even cancelled. The two most successful ethnic groups in this country, measured in academic achievement and prosperity, are British Chinese and British Indians, somewhere down the bottom of this scale you'll find Bangladeshis, white working class young men are not doing too well on this scale either. None of this has to do with ethnicity, but it has everything to do with culture and the ability, or otherwise, of various groups to identify the prevailing culture in this country, what to swerve and what to grab, and make it work for them.

I grew up in a poor working class family in Lower Broughton in Salford, I had instilled in me from an early age two things, get educated and get out, not just from Lower Broughton, but out of the working class all together and into the professions.


You're missing the point, what defines British culture, or Italian, French, German, or Greek culture for that matter, is almost immaterial, it changes over time anyway, what matters for a harmonious society is whatever the prevailing culture of a country might be, it is a set of values that the vast majority recognise and feel an affinity with, what defines them in their hearts and minds as British or French or Greek, shared values that unite them.

Multiculturalism is the exact opposite of this, it states all cultures are equal, there is no prevailing culture and even if there were, to integrate is a betrayal of your own cultural identity. We all know the slurs hurled at black people for acting like white folk and there are many other such slurs used by various ethnic groups for those who dare to bend with the prevailing wind to get on.

Multiculturalism creates a self reinforcing ghetto mentality, us and them, this perpetuates ignorance that can turn to anger, fear of one group swamping another, all nicely stoked up by the manufactured outrage of right wing bad faith actors.

And don't believe the line from the left either who see everything through the prism of class, that it's all deliberate, a contrived artificial scarcity of resources for the poor, so that different ethnic groups fight each other over scraps, while the fat cats play divide and rule.

While it is undoubtedly true that class is the single biggest determinant of life chances, multiculturalism exacerbates this, preventing struggling ethnic groups from developing class solidarity outside their group, preventing them from recognising they have more in common with the poor white bloke down the road than they might think. Except all too often nowadays the white bloke isn't there and even if he were everyone is busy living in their self reinforcing cultural bubble.

I agree that the culture of a country adapts and changes over time and through the influences of other cultures and customs that it absorbs. We are a multicultural society but the UK does better than most European nations in integrating different ethnic groups.

And while we are a multicultural society, there is an overriding sense of ‘Britishness’ - for want of a better word that overlays this multiculturalism. Adaptation and absorption of customs, cuisine etc works both ways with all groups buying into the latest manifestation of ‘Britishness’ that while different is still distinctly British.

Fundamentally, I think we are a lot less insular than most European nations.

 

[bluethrunthru]

4 white kids stab 2 white kids to death - no rioting ............. its almost like the deaths were not the cause at all

Mason Rist and Max Dixon: Five guilty of murdering Bristol teens

Mason Rist and Max Dixon were stabbed to death just yards from Mason's front door in Bristol.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Complete rubbish.

Excellent. This is absolutely the level of argument that will change his mind. Well done you.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

4 white kids stab 2 white kids to death - no rioting ............. its almost like the deaths were not the cause at all

Mason Rist and Max Dixon: Five guilty of murdering Bristol teens

Mason Rist and Max Dixon were stabbed to death just yards from Mason's front door in Bristol.

www.bbc.co.uk

The unfortunate reality is that nobody cares about people who live in somewhere like Knowle West or Hartcliffe. People in KW and H know this.

It's 96% White and heavily deprived. There's very little reason for anyone who doesn't live there or isn't visiting people to venture South of the River. Brislington was bad enough for me, but KW is by the worst area of Bristol.

Deprivation breeds this cruel but also moronic attitude to life. Killing a fellow teenager and then going for a Mcdonald's Breakfast like it's an ordinary day.

 

[meltonblue]

No we're not.

We're a multi ethnic society, there's a difference.


No there isn't.

Depends on your definition of multiculturalism but personally I think we’re both. On the overriding sense of Britishness, there is that in everyone I know and I’d actually say it’s equally if not stronger in those that have come from different cultures initially.

 

[Blue and true]

You do if you want to get on, if you don't want to be marginalised, ostracised or even cancelled. The two most successful ethnic groups in this country, measured in academic achievement and prosperity, are British Chinese and British Indians, somewhere down the bottom of this scale you'll find Bangladeshis, white working class young men are not doing too well on this scale either. None of this has to do with ethnicity, but it has everything to do with culture and the ability, or otherwise, of various groups to identify the prevailing culture in this country, what to swerve and what to grab, and make it work for them.

I grew up in a poor working class family in Lower Broughton in Salford, I had instilled in me from an early age two things, get educated and get out, not just from Lower Broughton, but out of the working class all together and into the professions.


You're missing the point, what defines British culture, or Italian, French, German, or Greek culture doesn't matter so much, it changes over time, what matters for a harmonious society is whatever the prevailing culture of a country might be at any one time, it is a set of values that the vast majority of folk in that country recognise and feel an affinity with, what defines them in their hearts and minds as British or French or Greek, shared values that unite them.

Multiculturalism is the exact opposite of this, it states all cultures are equal, there is no prevailing culture and even if there were, to integrate is a betrayal of your own cultural identity. We all know the slurs hurled at black people for acting like white folk and there are many other such slurs used by various ethnic groups for those who dare to bend with the prevailing wind to get on.

Multiculturalism creates a self reinforcing ghetto mentality, us and them, this perpetuates ignorance that can turn to anger, fear of one group swamping another, all nicely stoked up by the manufactured outrage of right wing bad faith actors.

And don't believe the line from the left either who see everything through the prism of class, that it's all deliberate, a contrived artificial scarcity of resources for the poor, so that different ethnic groups fight each other over scraps, while the fat cats play divide and rule.

While it is undoubtedly true that class is the single biggest determinant of life chances, multiculturalism exacerbates this, hindering struggling ethnic groups from developing class solidarity outside their group, preventing them from recognising they have more in common with the poor white bloke down the road than they might think, except all too often nowadays the white bloke isn't there, and even if he were, everyone is too busy living in their self reinforcing cultural bubble.

Thank you for a well-reasoned, cogent response.

Culture is an all-encompassing term and it's nigh on impossible to find any one designation that fits all; to some it could be as simple as pot noodles and fish and chips, to others it could be riding a barge on a canal, still to others it can be the tribalism at a football ground. Culture is very difficult to pinpoint, the same is true with different ethnicities, and thus it's very difficult to say with certainty that multiculturism is failing.

I'm not sure where you're going with your claim that you need to be of a minority ethnic group to thrive? I'm white British male, I would never identify as anything else, and I've carved out a successful career and lead a life that I am very happy with. I was never stymied because of my background, and it's important to stress nobody would get held back because they are white and not Chinese/Indian. Chinese and Indian are notoriously familial and hammer home the importance of education to their children throughout every stage of their life; that's a quirk of their culture, but why would that preclude others from doing the same? Again, there is no requirement to assimilate this sub-culture into your own and accept it; but it's important to recognise its virtue, no?

You talk of values but, again, what values are these? Friendship? Togetherness? To be law-abiding? All adults should know the values of community and I've not been to one place in the UK where the vast majority didn't treat each other with respect; and that's in very diverse places of our country.

I don't think multiculturalism creates a ghetto mentality. Interestingly, I see ultra-nationalism to be the extreme pole of multiculturalism, and I would argue it is that that creates a ghetto mentality. You only have to reference the picture of Tommy Robinson you posted to see the fullness of that mentality.

What frustrates me is there are too many who decry different cultures integrating, and those same people will never praise these cultures when they enrich our country; the thousands of nurses and doctors of differing ethnic backgrounds that keep our NHS running, to use just one pertinent example. Make no mistake, any prospering Western nation is prospering precisely because of multiculturalism, and not in spite of it. The US is a case study example. Italians, Irish, Hispanics, the Dutch, Eastern Europeans...the English; they all helped to build the US and turn it into the most powerful country in the world. If a Trumpian, isolationist ethos had been held by the US forefathers, it would not exist as the country it does today.

 

[The perfect fumble]

it's very difficult to say with certainty that multiculturism is failing.

Failing at what?

I'm not sure where you're going with your claim that you need to be of a minority ethnic group to thrive?

I didn't state that.

Chinese and Indian are notoriously familial and hammer home the importance of education to their children throughout every stage of their life; that's a quirk of their culture, but why would that preclude others from doing the same?

It doesn't.

You talk of values but, again, what values are these? Friendship? Togetherness? To be law-abiding? All adults should know the values of community and I've not been to one place in the UK where the vast majority didn't treat each other with respect; and that's in very diverse places of our country.

For the most part what you're talking about is common humanity, which is to be found everywhere, across all ethnic groups and cultures, pointing to that and saying those are our values, that's what defines us as Brits is a nonsense, the French, the Japanese, the Germans, everyone could say the same and it would be equally meaningless.

Make no mistake, any prospering Western nation is prospering precisely because of multiculturalism, and not in spite of it.

No, you're confusing multiculturalism with the massive contribution to western economies made by immigrant labour.

The US is a case study example. Italians, Irish, Hispanics, the Dutch, Eastern Europeans...the English; they all helped to build the US and turn it into the most powerful country in the world. If a Trumpian, isolationist ethos had been held by the US forefathers, it would not exist as the country it does today.

The USA is a country of immigrants, its indigenous population was close to wiped out by those very same immigrants, but that period of mass migration to the USA took place at a time when the west embraced the traditional liberal image of the melting pot, into which people of different cultures were assimilated into a unified national culture, which is, and this is the important bit, entirely different to multiculturalism. Of course the melting pot idea didn't apply to slaves that were transported there and the huge number of Chinese that built the rail roads.

Here's a question for you.

This is a right wing historian, I disagree with him on a great many things, but I don't disagree with this short three minute video, and it makes me sad...



What do you think?

 

[KDB Fan]

On the topic of Russian/Soviet comparisons, seems an ex-Prime Minister is making it too. From the front page of the Mail:

Thought police in Britain 'are like Soviet Union', says Boris Johnson

Writing in today's Daily Mail, the former prime minister says investigations by police into comments on social media come 'straight out of 1980s Romania'.

www.dailymail.co.uk

With the disastrous levels of knife crime in this country, have the police got nothing better to do than threatening journalists with arrest or going after historic posts on social media?