UK far right trouble

[The perfect fumble]

On the topic of Russian/Soviet comparisons, seems an ex-Prime Minister is making it too. From the front page of the Mail:

Thought police in Britain 'are like Soviet Union', says Boris Johnson

Writing in today's Daily Mail, the former prime minister says investigations by police into comments on social media come 'straight out of 1980s Romania'.

www.dailymail.co.uk

With the disastrous levels of knife crime in this country, have the police got nothing better to do than threatening journalists with arrest or going after historic posts on social media?

Someone should remind the fat fool, that the College of Policing first recommended the investigation of non crime hate incidents in 2014.

 

[KDB Fan]

Political prisoners now. This is getting weirder by the day

Missed this one. If you look at the Council of Europe's definition, we very clearly have political prisoners in our country.

A person deprived of their personal liberty is to be regarded as a 'political prisoner':

1. if the detention has been imposed in violation of one of the fundamental guarantees set out in the European Convention on Human Rights and its Protocols, in particular freedom of thought, conscience and religion, freedom of expression and information, freedom of assembly and association;
2. if the detention has been imposed for purely political reasons without connection to any offence;
3. if, for political motives, the length of the detention or its conditions are clearly out of proportion to the offence the person has been found guilty of or is suspected of;
4. if, for political motives, he or she is detained in a discriminatory manner as compared to other persons; or,
5. if the detention is the result of proceedings which were clearly unfair and this appears to be connected with political motives of the authorities.[5]

There's lots of grounds to claim we have political prisoners but if you look at 3 and 4 especially...the length of sentence some of these protesters are getting in relation to actual violent offenders and even rapists who've avoided jail, there's little doubt.

Have a look at this case for example, do you genuinely think people imprisoned for tweets should be getting longer than a child rapist? He avoided prison due to overcrowding yet the state decided to jail hundreds, maybe thousands of people after the Southport killings.

Child rapist is spared jail due to the prison overcrowding crisis

Rees Newman, 33, received a suspended sentence for the historic rape of a girl under 14 - and has been back before court for breaching terms but given a reprieve.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[BobKowalski]

Missed this one. If you look at the Council of Europe's definition, we very clearly have political prisoners in our country.

A person deprived of their personal liberty is to be regarded as a 'political prisoner':

1. if the detention has been imposed in violation of one of the fundamental guarantees set out in the European Convention on Human Rights and its Protocols, in particular freedom of thought, conscience and religion, freedom of expression and information, freedom of assembly and association;
2. if the detention has been imposed for purely political reasons without connection to any offence;
3. if, for political motives, the length of the detention or its conditions are clearly out of proportion to the offence the person has been found guilty of or is suspected of;
4. if, for political motives, he or she is detained in a discriminatory manner as compared to other persons; or,
5. if the detention is the result of proceedings which were clearly unfair and this appears to be connected with political motives of the authorities.[5]

There's lots of grounds to claim we have political prisoners but if you look at 3 and 4 especially...the length of sentence some of these protesters are getting in relation to actual violent offenders and even rapists who've avoided jail, there's little doubt.

Have a look at this case for example, do you genuinely think people imprisoned for tweets should be getting longer than a child rapist? He avoided prison due to overcrowding yet the state decided to jail hundreds, maybe thousands of people after the Southport killings.

Child rapist is spared jail due to the prison overcrowding crisis

Rees Newman, 33, received a suspended sentence for the historic rape of a girl under 14 - and has been back before court for breaching terms but given a reprieve.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The Just Stop Oil protesters received record sentences for non-violent protests. Should they be classed as political prisoners given the sentencing was driven by political motives/legislation by the then right wing Tory Govt? Did they deserve years in jail compared to the rapist example the Mail used? Is the Mail campaigning on their behalf?

 

[The perfect fumble]

The Just Stop Oil protesters received record sentences for non-violent protests. Should they be classed as political prisoners given the sentencing was driven by political motives/legislation by the then right wing Tory Govt? Did they deserve years in jail compared to the rapist example the Mail used? Is the Mail campaigning on their behalf?

The Just Stop Oil protesters and the Southport "protests" for that matter, all received severe sentences for two reasons, to act as a deterrent to others and, perhaps more importantly, to signal that these incidents are not legitimate political protests but criminality.

 

[KDB Fan]

The Just Stop Oil protesters received record sentences for non-violent protests. Should they be classed as political prisoners given the sentencing was driven by political motives/legislation by the then right wing Tory Govt? Did they deserve years in jail compared to the rapist example the Mail used? Is the Mail campaigning on their behalf?

My recollection of some of the Just Stop Oil protests is that they were blocking roads that caused ambulances and other emergency vehicles to become blocked, leading to much greater harm than the vast majority of violent protests.

In that context, no I don't think they are political prisoners but if there's any arrests/custodial sentences handed down where the harm/damage they caused was minor (as in they were arrested for disinformation or chanting innocuous things) then I'll be more than happy to change my mind and be open to the idea that some of these people are political prisoners.

 

[BobKowalski]

My recollection of some of the Just Stop Oil protests is that they were blocking roads that caused ambulances and other emergency vehicles to become blocked, leading to much greater harm than the vast majority of violent protests.

In that context, no I don't think they are political prisoners but if there's any arrests/custodial sentences handed down where the harm/damage they caused was minor (as in they were arrested for disinformation or chanting innocuous things) then I'll be more than happy to change my mind and be open to the idea that some of these people are political prisoners.

Ah, the classic ‘what about the ambulances full of sick children’ defence. Amazing bad luck. Whenever there was a JOS protest, fleets of ambulances were immediately diverted to the scene. GPS must have been on the blink.

What about the two years inside for throwing soup at a painting that the JOS got? Less or more deserving than rape? Is it possible the Govt targeted them politically because they did seem to receive disproportionate sentences for peaceful demonstrations?

The answer is yes JOS were treated differently for political reasons as the Tory Govt saw them as a threat to the State. In that context they are political prisoners and most people were happy to see them banged up for years because they hated them despite JOS posing no physical threat.

The recent riots/protests and their online agitators were equally seen as a threat to the State and the newly elected Govt. Unlike JOS there was physical violence and it was aimed at destabilising the Labour Govt and they clamped down hard in response.

The State always has, and always will, clamp down hard on what it perceives to be a threat to itself, be it real or imagined. It only becomes an issue when it’s your side or your beliefs that are on the receiving end. Those that are now decrying people being locked up for trying to stir up violence were demanding JOS be locked up for sitting in a road or chucking soup at a painting. We can all be a tad hypocritical over these issues depending on our viewpoint, but at least spare us the moral indignation at people being locked up for their ‘political views’ and freedom of expression because they couldn’t give a toss about it when it concerns ‘lefty’ issues they disagree with.

 

[Ducado]

This paragraph is a good point and why I don't think you can arrest your way out of a political crisis. So many regimes have tried it over the years and while you might get temporary order, it doesn't change anybody's mind about the truth or justice of a situation and the vast majority of these regimes collapse and the truth does eventually come out. Meanwhile, the political prisoners you've arrested become radicalised and become even more of a threat later down the line.

There is no political crisis there are active far right groups we have always had extremists form both left and right

 

[KDB Fan]

Ah, the classic ‘what about the ambulances full of sick children’ defence. Amazing bad luck. Whenever there was a JOS protest, fleets of ambulances were immediately diverted to the scene. GPS must have been on the blink.

What about the two years inside for throwing soup at a painting that the JOS got? Less or more deserving than rape? Is it possible the Govt targeted them politically because they did seem to receive disproportionate sentences for peaceful demonstrations?

The answer is yes JOS were treated differently for political reasons as the Tory Govt saw them as a threat to the State. In that context they are political prisoners and most people were happy to see them banged up for years because they hated them despite JOS posing no physical threat.

The recent riots/protests and their online agitators were equally seen as a threat to the State and the newly elected Govt. Unlike JOS there was physical violence and it was aimed at destabilising the Labour Govt and they clamped down hard in response.

The State always has, and always will, clamp down hard on what it perceives to be a threat to itself, be it real or imagined. It only becomes an issue when it’s your side or your beliefs that are on the receiving end. Those that are now decrying people being locked up for trying to stir up violence were demanding JOS be locked up for sitting in a road or chucking soup at a painting. We can all be a tad hypocritical over these issues depending on our viewpoint, but at least spare us the moral indignation at people being locked up for their ‘political views’ and freedom of expression because they couldn’t give a toss about it when it concerns ‘lefty’ issues they disagree with.

You don't think stopping emergency vehicles causes any harm? In my opinion that's a very serious offence and if anyone's died as a result of stopping an ambulance, police officer, or fire engine from getting to a threat-to-life situation, arguably manslaughter. You cannot frame that as a non-violent offence.

Throwing soup at a painting is obviously a lot less serious than the above and a lot less serious than child rape. I'd agree the people locked up shouldn't be getting longer than a child rapist however, they still attempted to cause millions of pounds worth of property damage given the value of the painting so I don't think the sentence is out of line with the sentencing regime for property offences. If anything, you could argue it was lenient.

Are there any examples of Just Stop Oil protesters being imprisoned for speech offences or offensive tweets?

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Missed this one. If you look at the Council of Europe's definition, we very clearly have political prisoners in our country.

A person deprived of their personal liberty is to be regarded as a 'political prisoner':

1. if the detention has been imposed in violation of one of the fundamental guarantees set out in the European Convention on Human Rights and its Protocols, in particular freedom of thought, conscience and religion, freedom of expression and information, freedom of assembly and association;
2. if the detention has been imposed for purely political reasons without connection to any offence;
3. if, for political motives, the length of the detention or its conditions are clearly out of proportion to the offence the person has been found guilty of or is suspected of;
4. if, for political motives, he or she is detained in a discriminatory manner as compared to other persons; or,
5. if the detention is the result of proceedings which were clearly unfair and this appears to be connected with political motives of the authorities.[5]

There's lots of grounds to claim we have political prisoners but if you look at 3 and 4 especially...the length of sentence some of these protesters are getting in relation to actual violent offenders and even rapists who've avoided jail, there's little doubt.

Have a look at this case for example, do you genuinely think people imprisoned for tweets should be getting longer than a child rapist? He avoided prison due to overcrowding yet the state decided to jail hundreds, maybe thousands of people after the Southport killings.

Child rapist is spared jail due to the prison overcrowding crisis

Rees Newman, 33, received a suspended sentence for the historic rape of a girl under 14 - and has been back before court for breaching terms but given a reprieve.

www.dailymail.co.uk

He was the same age as the victim when he committed the offence, that's missed in the headline. He is deserving of being sent to prison but when the previous government neglected the system so badly, uncomfortable choices need to be made.

The alternative would be not to pursue historic sexual offences.

If the rioters weren't harshly punished there would have been more violent disorder and people would have been killed. Inner cities shutting down with a few hours notice and hospitality and retail staff losing pay because of loons tweeting hoaxes about rallies or inciting people to burn buildings with people inside them isn't something that should go unchecked.