US Politics Thread

[The Future’s Blue!]

The US was bound by the agreement. Failure to honour the agreement would have just reopened hostilities and meant more troops and Biden would have been painted as a warmonger who ’threw out the peace deal’. Every American casualty would have conservatives screaming in protest that ‘Biden has American blood on his hands’.

Biden was against the troop build up in 2010 so by inclination and political calculation he was always going to honour the peace deal and get out. Trump put down an exit ramp and Biden took it.

From what we are seeing I don’t think anybody can defend the way that this has happened. It’s been an absolute cluster-fuck where the Taliban are even allowed to take credit for forcing the issue.

NATO countries have made themselves look weak, lapdogs of the US. They should hang their heads in shame.

 

[foetus]

This actually happened. Fact checked true.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

From what we are seeing I don’t think anybody can defend the way that this has happened. It’s been an absolute cluster-fuck where the Taliban are even allowed to take credit for forcing the issue.

NATO countries have made themselves look weak, lapdogs of the US. They should hang their heads in shame.

It has been a shit show but I don't see a good way out. The local security forces have had 5~10 years to sort themselves out. They have had all that time to be ready for this.

 

[BobKowalski]

From what we are seeing I don’t think anybody can defend the way that this has happened. It’s been an absolute cluster-fuck where the Taliban are even allowed to take credit for forcing the issue.

NATO countries have made themselves look weak, lapdogs of the US. They should hang their heads in shame.

No one is defending how it was handled, everyone got caught with their pants down with the swift collapse of the Govt and the Army. Biden said they miscalculated that one, hence the chaos.

Europe has always been subservient to US defence and military policy. Personally, I'm in favour of a strong European defence policy as a counter-balance, but there is little appetite for that.

 

[inbetween]

No one is defending how it was handled, everyone got caught with their pants down with the swift collapse of the Govt and the Army. Biden said they miscalculated that one, hence the chaos.

Europe has always been subservient to US defence and military policy. Personally, I'm in favour of a strong European defence policy as a counter-balance, but there is little appetite for that.

The reason most countries are subservient to the US is because the US spends more and is far more capable than the rest of the world put together.

As I said on the Afghanistan thread, the US Air Force has 220 of one type of transport aircraft, we have 8. The Germans and French don't even have such transport aircraft and you can forget the rest of Europe. So how would Europe respond to the Afghan crisis when it isn't capable in doing so? Countries like Ireland don't even have an Air Force!

A European defence policy will not be strong because it will not be capable enough because it will be composed of just us, the French and the Germans and that's pretty much it and all 3 are already NATO members.

 

[SWP's back]

 

[SWP's back]

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

No doubt she'll be one of the idiots who believes God will protect her from COVID, but has a gun for 'personal protection'.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Parody - Bang on the money.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

Best idea EVER . . . . though I’d make sure the dose can only be introduced into the body via the anus.

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

Parody - Bang on the money.

I thought that this dude was gonna spout some sort of QAnon nonsense.

But bang on. And quite funny.

 

[BobKowalski]

The reason most countries are subservient to the US is because the US spends more and is far more capable than the rest of the world put together.

As I said on the Afghanistan thread, the US Air Force has 220 of one type of transport aircraft, we have 8. The Germans and French don't even have such transport aircraft and you can forget the rest of Europe. So how would Europe respond to the Afghan crisis when it isn't capable in doing so? Countries like Ireland don't even have an Air Force!

A European defence policy will not be strong because it will not be capable enough because it will be composed of just us, the French and the Germans and that's pretty much it and all 3 are already NATO members.

It would be four main members, France, Germany, Italy and Spain. The UK is allergic to anything ‘European’. Italian and Spanish armed forces are comparable in size to the UK.

Combined they cannot compete with the US, but Europe does need to wean itself off US dependency. This doesn't preclude cooperation or future joint engagements, just a degree of autonomy in its defence.

After Trump and now this, if the political will to do something at a European level is not found, then it never will be found.

The UK will tag along with whatever the US does. Our military capacity is very low meaning we have little capacity to do much by ourselves and we cannot be seen to do anything formally with Europe - albeit we do conduct joint operations with other European countries in areas like Africa. None of it is high profile, though.

 

[inbetween]

It would be four main members, France, Germany, Italy and Spain. The UK is allergic to anything ‘European’. Italian and Spanish armed forces are comparable in size to the UK.

Combined they cannot compete with the US, but Europe does need to wean itself off US dependency. This doesn't preclude cooperation or future joint engagements, just a degree of autonomy in its defence.

After Trump and now this, if the political will to do something at a European level is not found, then it never will be found.

The UK will tag along with whatever the US does. Our military capacity is very low meaning we have little capacity to do much by ourselves and we cannot be seen to do anything formally with Europe - albeit we do conduct joint operations with other European countries in areas like Africa. None of it is high profile, though.

I think you're wrong to say that the UK is allergic to anything European because certainly in aviation our entire commercial and military industrial complex has been almost fully based around working with European countries.

Airbus aircraft, Concorde, Eurofighter Typhoon, Panavia Tornado and the future BAE Tempest were/are all UK-European joint ventures. Airbus is one of the largest manufacturers in the world and it was once 33% owned by the British. None of this is going to change because we cannot do it on our own and neither can they.

I don't think we are as dependent on the US as you'd think but the reason for our dependence in some places is because the US is an ally and they are far more capable and spend far more than anyone else to maintain that capability.

Let's put it this way, the US could put 20 aircraft carriers anywhere in the world whereas the EU's combined might (forget the UK) still only amounts to 1 single French aircraft carrier. If it was a football match, this one is City vs the best 11 of the Vanorama Conference.

 

[JASR]

Let's put it this way, the US could put 20 aircraft carriers anywhere in the world whereas the EU's combined might (forget the UK) still only amounts to 1 single French aircraft carrier. If it was a football match, this one is City vs the best 11 of the Vanorama Conference.

The US 10 carriers. But it does have 10 other vessels capable of handling helicopters or STOL/VTOL.
France 1 + 3
Italy 0 + 2
Spain 0 + 1
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_in_service

but your point is still made. The US naval forces dwarf European. But they do cover the entire worlds oceans.
also with the US having so many, they will always tend to have at least 8 carriers available - servicing takes a very long time. (Edit: 4 years!) Whereas Spain would have many periods of time when they have no capability.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

What’s that? Trump politicized the pandemic you say? Bullshit. He did nothing of the sor. . . .

Oh. Wait.

 

[BobKowalski]

I think you're wrong to say that the UK is allergic to anything European because certainly in aviation our entire commercial and military industrial complex has been almost fully based around working with European countries.

Airbus aircraft, Concorde, Eurofighter Typhoon, Panavia Tornado and the future BAE Tempest were/are all UK-European joint ventures. Airbus is one of the largest manufacturers in the world and it was once 33% owned by the British. None of this is going to change because we cannot do it on our own and neither can they.

I don't think we are as dependent on the US as you'd think but the reason for our dependence in some places is because the US is an ally and they are far more capable and spend far more than anyone else to maintain that capability.

Let's put it this way, the US could put 20 aircraft carriers anywhere in the world whereas the EU's combined might (forget the UK) still only amounts to 1 single French aircraft carrier. If it was a football match, this one is City vs the best 11 of the Vanorama Conference.

I think the UK joining up to a European Armed Force is, politically, a non-starter. More informal arrangements are very possible, but Europe needs to make some form of viable and visible statement on defence. I don't think the political will is there, but after Trump it certainly rose up the discussion chain.

That Europe cannot match the US is a given. I doubt if we ever will, or even want to. I suspect once the Afghan situation starts to recede (at least for the West, if not Afghanistan) then we will go back to not thinking about it until the next crisis.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

No one is defending how it was handled, everyone got caught with their pants down with the swift collapse of the Govt and the Army. Biden said they miscalculated that one, hence the chaos.

Europe has always been subservient to US defence and military policy. Personally, I'm in favour of a strong European defence policy as a counter-balance, but there is little appetite for that.

We weren’t caught with our pants down, that would be incompetent. My belief is that we all knew exactly what was going to happen and this is the US saying to the rest of NATO that we will no longer cover your commitment.

The fact that we couldn’t (unless something came out of today’s call) mass a European contingent, just shows how weak a nation we are. And, don’t mention us fucking off our former partners.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

We weren’t caught with our pants down, that would be incompetent. My belief is that we all knew exactly what was going to happen and this is the US saying to the rest of NATO that we will no longer cover your commitment.

The fact that we couldn’t (unless something came out of today’s call) mass a European contingent, just shows how weak a nation we are. And, don’t mention us fucking off our former partners.

We're essentially a UK defence force at this point with no real ability to independently project our conventional forces anywhere around the world for a prolonged period without significant logistical support from other nations.

That said, we are far from weak. Elements of our military have a worldwide reputation for being amongst the best fighting forces on the planet and are more than capable of carrying out small-scale operations anywhere in the world. Also we are still technically a nuclear superpower, so we do have a bit of clout.

 

[Vic]

The point is he was not bound by the agreement and could have pulled out of it without violating anything. Ergo, this situation has nothing to do with Trump. It was Biden's decisions.

Also, as I pointed out in an earlier post, the issue is not so much the decision to pull out - it is the catastrophic way it has been done

EDIT: that's not to say I think Trump's agreement with the Taliban was sound - it also defies logic to me. But the notion that there is some kind of cause and effect and Biden had no choice simply flies in the face of facts.

That's an interesting way to put it. "That's not to say I think Trump's agreement with the Taliban was sound."

Trump's capitulation agreement wasn't "sound".

 

[Vic]

Missed a trick there.

Do you think Trump did take the vaccine? No.

Next question should have been, "So Trump is lying about taking the vaccine?"