US Presidential Election, Nov 5th 2024

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Agreed but I haven't met anyone at that level of wealth, i was talking about your run of the mill loaded person.

Yes, they are mainly very tight and frequently unhappy. We are a fucked up species.

 

[hilts]

My objection to Trump all along has been that in any logical world he is supremely unfit to be President, and my assumption has been that most human beings would be able to look at the balance of evidence and conclude the same.

But that’s not the case. Why?

Because his voters believe character isn’t relevant? Well, I’ve lived my whole life assuming it is — and raised my kids to believe same, and try to associate with as many people as possible who believe the same — not about Trump, mind, but about how to treat others, how to behave.

The thing is I assume most of Trump’s supporters do too — not otherwise — and in fact most people in general do too, which is why this is so hard to grasp.

So what should I conclude about people who aren’t like me in this regard? You tell me — because apparently to conclude that they’re wrong means I’m an elitist or a racist . . . or something.

I think what some are saying is you have to play the game and they are probably right if winning is the only goal. Unfortunately that means demeaning yourself and your values.
At the end of the day not enough people have your values because in most cases they are just cunts.

People will come up with all sorts of reasons why someone like Trump or in our case Johnson got elected. The truth is they reflect the current population more than the opposition do.

You just thought your country had a few more better people in it. Now you know it doesn't and its fucking depressing.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

In principle the strategy ought to be to answer the lies directly where they are disseminated. The dems therefore need a big presence on line, TikTok, Facebook etc. Twitter would be interesting! Sorry, I mean X.
Ideally, they need an oligarch of their own to buy a tv network and direct it as Murdoch does Fox. Hmmmm…..

In principle — but that’s the issue — if you blanket the nation with a blizzard of lies about everything, it’s impossible to keep up.

Meantime the other side only needs one little lie or even a slip up from your side or anyone associated with you side to say, “See? You do it too.”

Dax is an absolute slave to this tactic btw. All Trump lies are justified because someone who didn’t like Trump did something once.

 

[KS55]

In principle — but that’s the issue — if you blanket the nation with a blizzard of lies about everything, it’s impossible to keep up.

Meantime the other side only needs one little lie or even a slip up from your side or anyone associated with you side to say, “See? You do it too.”

Dax is an absolute slave to this tactic btw. All Trump lies are justified because someone who didn’t like Trump did something once.

I was not suggesting the activity should be mendacious, more the factual response to the lies. Currently, the dems have far too little activity on line and I guess that might add to their ‘snooty’ rep. Dax said that Harris did not know how to speak to people who were not dems and that is true, I think. The medium is the message.
The dems lost a lot of support where they should not have done eg Latinos, young voters, working class. There is where they should be researching and acting.

 

[johnny crossan]

The excess of class & culture warriors on social media could arguably have created a second Trump Presidency. Many voters arguably saw him as a refuge from those two destructive dogmas.

 

[mackenzie]

I have yet to meet a wealthy person who was happy to give away his/her money.

Not disagreeing, but I was only pointing out that if you have enough money to live a reasonably comfortable life then you are less likely to worry about paying your mortgage that month or having enough to cover groceries.
If someone is really struggling financially then it becomes an all consuming worry with little time or energy to worry about other things.

 

[Vic]

Yes, the sanctions issue is an even more challenging one for European nations. If there isn’t the will to make up the difference in military spending necessitated by withdrawal of US support then that’s a fairly binary position, but presumably any ‘deal’ will involve the lifting of sanctions which would (I feel) be hugely controversial and unpopular in Europe as it would mean Russia being seen to profit from her truculence.

The whole issue of the withdrawal of US support for Ukraine is far more nuanced than it is painted by people who think it’s as straightforward as Trump picking up the phone to Putin.

Yeah, he needs 24 hours.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Then, a question arises. Presumably Trump would bring an end to sanctions. What does Europe do then? If we acquiesce, then Russia, complete with its Ukrainian province, has won hands down.

Yes.

Putin won when he was allowed to annex Crimea in 2014 and what we're witnessing is the end game for the rest of Ukraine.

Weak countries can only survive if they have strong allies, but more important than that, if they have strong allies with the capability and the political will to come to their aid, and that political will comes from a greater strategic or political significance that the weak country represents for those strong allies, and that significance has to be shared by sufficient numbers of the citizens of those allies.

British Empire forces lost close to a million men in the First World War, ostensibly they died to protect Belgian sovereignty, but strategically it was because the British Empire could not tolerate a Continental Europe unified under a single militaristic Germany facing us across the Channel, and for the most part the British people agreed.

The USA went to war in Vietnam, not because of Vietnam in isolation, but to stop the domino effect a Communist Vietnam would propel, whereby one country falls to Communism and then its neighbour and so on. After a time the US public weren't buying it, support for the war drained away and the USA lost the war.

Remember Jack Straw lying in Parliament about those non-existent WMDs that could hit our military bases in Cyprus? That was the Blairite attempt to sell the Iraq war to the British public, for the most part there were few takers, but we went ahead anyway and it has tainted Blair ever since.

A weak country faced with a bellicose stronger country out to get them, an enemy with the political will and the means to do so, has to have similarly motivated and capable allies to survive. As of last week that no longer applies to Ukraine. If Trump pulls the plug, he will do so knowing his base will support him and Ukraine will lose and lose big.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

I was not suggesting the activity should be mendacious, more the factual response to the lies. Currently, the dems have far too little activity on line and I guess that might add to their ‘snooty’ rep. Dax said that Harris did not know how to speak to people who were not dems and that is true, I think. The medium is the message.
The dems lost a lot of support where they should not have done eg Latinos, young voters, working class. There is where they should be researching and acting.

Here we go again. How in the world do you “speak to people who aren’t Democrats”?

Give me an example of a sentence that would show me anyone was “speaking to someone not a Democrat.”

These are all bullshit excuses. People voted for Trump because they believe him despite his nearly superhuman ability to lie. And, as is the case with Dax, they want to see those they don’t like suffer.

I guarantee when all is said and done, legal immigrants are going to say they voted for Trump because he’ll keep out those who try to come illegally which is unfair to those who came legally. Fine, but Trump was supposed to build a wall and did nothing. Oh but this time, you know, he’ll fix it. FFS, how does one speak to people who believe lies and a liar?

I really don’t know how much more clearly to put this. People once they have something they don’t want other people to have it if they haven’t earned it, yet they vote for Trump who was literally handed everything and doesn’t care two shits about them because Kamala Harris was being “preachy”, sniff sniff.

 

[hilts]

Not disagreeing, but I was only pointing out that if you have enough money to live a reasonably comfortable life then you are less likely to worry about paying your mortgage that month or having enough to cover groceries.
If someone is really struggling financially then it becomes an all consuming worry with little time or energy to worry about other things.

I agree but the discussion was about voting, people will obviously be concerned about the needy right up.to the point that it actually affects them financially then its well you're just gonna have to pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

I used to have a similar attitude, if I can do it and the people I know can why can't they?

I was very wrong, took me a while though:-(