Var debate 2019/20

[blueinsa]

Before anyone else quotes Andy fucking Gray and his technological knowledge of 1990’s football broadcasting:

Sky broadcast football and all other sports where they have cameras at 50 FPS and has done since 2016 (3 years into Andy’s stint in the bastard desert):

“Sky has secured 124 Premier League football games which it will air in 4K UHD. That means that it will be broadcast live to your dish at 50 frames per second for super fast action captured clearly.”

https://recombu.com/digital/article...k-uhd-on-sky-q-ultra-hd-shows-movies-channels

https://www.sky.com/help/articles/watching-sky-q-in-ultra-hd

https://www.express.co.uk/life-styl...Sky-TV-4K-Ultra-HD-BBC-iplayer-wimbledon-2018

Technology is a wonderful thing so imagine my amazement when watching the game in glorious 4k to suddenly having to see a still of the offside apparently showing Raz's shoulder a cm in front of the defenders in what looked like a CCTV still they show on crimewatch that looked as if it had been taken with a camera from 1905.

Something doesnt quite add up mate?

 

[simon23]

But there aren’t. There are a minimum of 50 (broadcast standard) and a maximum of 60 (which it’s filmed in).

I have no clue..just going off what was said on that video....but if you are correct (and Im not doubting that you are) then that makes is even harder to judge with more space (frames) for interpritation of when the ball is played

The question i guess is when is the ball played...is it the moment the passers foot touches the ball or is itthe point at which the ball leaves the passers boot...for me its the first........

There needs/has to be some consensus and agreement on this amongst the ref's/officials now as we have already seen that interpritation could mean one goal is given and one goal isnt or even one VAR official could give the goal but another on another day loking at the same incident wouldnt give it due to the interpritation.

for clarification i dont have a probem with VAR...think it will stop some of the cheating...ie dives, trying to get opponents sent off etc.Yes it does slow the game down and remove the emotion a bit when goals (or at least some) are scored as Pep said but i think there are positives to it as well

 

[Marvin]

sorry if this has been posted before but Andy Gray's analysis of this makes a really good point.....

the jist of ti is that dependant upon what frame the person who is looking at the VAR system stops it at will hange decisions and there can be 25 frames in a second (but from when themoment a player looks like he passes a ball there are about 3 or 4 frames but the differnce between those frames in terms of off or on side can be very different.


for me it is when the passer of the ball hits the ball initially so it should be the first frame

That's a good explanation.

You can't get round the problem that when someone strikes a pass, the ball does not leave instaantaneously but is in contact with the player for some duration. I think the relevant moment is the frame which captures the position when the ball leaves the player's foot, but that could be a difficult task.

We're being told it is an exact measurement but measurements are never exact.

I think if the process was reliable and reproducible so that if ten different people all reveiwed the same footage, they'd get the same result, they'd have show-cased it all to the world by now.

I wish they would go back to refs and linesman making the call in real time but I think it's here to stay now, although they will probably tinker with it.

 

[simon23]

That's a good explanation.

You can't get round the problem that when someone strikes a pass, the ball does not leave instaantaneously but is in contact with the player for some duration. I think the relevant moment is the frame which captures the position when the ball leaves the player's foot, but that could be a difficult task.

See, i think its the moment the passers foot makes contact with the ball as it is the start of the pass and the point which the passing player decides to pass (or micro seconds after his brain has decided!) ......

its easy to see therefore why its such a debatable point if fans of the same team cant agree on when a pass is made! That is why there needs to be . definitation of it vey quickyl what ever it is so at least we all know.

Id also prefertogo back to the clear daylight between the defender and attacker...that was muh easier to interpret i think

 

[SWP's back]

Technology is a wonderful thing so imagine my amazement when watching the game in glorious 4k to suddenly having to see a still of the offside apparently showing Raz's shoulder a cm in front of the defenders in what looked like a CCTV still they show on crimewatch that looked as if it had been taken with a camera from 1905.

Something doesnt quite add up mate?

Irrelevant to the point, mate.

 

[blueinsa]

Irrelevant to the fucking point, mate.

Is it?

What picture are the VAR seeing to make their judgement and if its better quality why do we not get the same so we can all say fair enough, offside?

These cameras can pick up a fucking nose hair at 100 yards mate yet the still looked like a grainy CCTV shot.

Why?

 

[SWP's back]

The question i guess is when is the ball played...is it the moment the passers foot touches the ball or is itthe point at which the ball leaves the passers boot

That’s a perfectly legitimate point and one Lineker raises as well. My understanding is it when the foot touches the ball hence the Sterling goal being onside.

 

[Marvin]

VAR had a very good opening weekend for me. In our game the decision on a potential penalty against Rodri lasted seconds and was over before Ederson even got the ball from the ballboy, that’s exactly what you want. Big tick there.

There’s obviously an issue with what’s offside and what isn’t but it’s a flaw in the rule and the interpretation of the rule than VAR itself. as long as every decision is given equally I’m perfectly fine with sterling’s goal being offside.

Im sure there will be another decision somewhere this season that’s given onside that’s worse than the sterling decision but the margin of error is much lower than what we get without it. It’s never going to be absolutely perfect from the start, the key thing is there’s a reduction in errors. I also fully expect the law to change within the next year or two for greater clarity and the tech will improve to aid this too.

For Sterling’s second goal, I looked over at the linesman before he even put it in and he looked as though he wanted to flag until he realised he can let it go to var, everybody around me thought he was offside too resulting in the subdued celebration more so than fans not celebrating until var had made a decision.

The penalty decision was fantastic, the ref didn’t want to give it initially and the encroaching is something that never gets pulled up. In fairness to refs it’s impossible to simultaneously watch every player on the edge of the box, the taker and the keeper so var finally enforcing this often ignored rule is a big win in my eyes.

Away from City, I’ve just heard Wolves manager coming out with the bullshit “var destroys the spirit of the game” what spirit? Football isn’t this gentlemen sport we like to believe anymore, players will take any advantage possible, Diving, feigning injury, cheating, ignoring rules of the game destroyed the spirit of the game long ago. I’ve not seen it but reports suggest the decision was a correct decision and stopped a team gaining points they didn’t deserve and another losing points they didn’t deserve to lose. “Fans shouldn’t cheer no goals” why not? fans cheer when the keeper makes a great save, fans cheers when strikers miss open goals, they cheer when penalties are missed/saved. He’s effectively saying cheating is part of the game and should be accepted which is utter bollocks.

He must have given 2 interviews then because in the one I saw he said he accepted the decision but didn't like the way the flow of the game was interrupted.

I think that the issue of the a 2 minute delay is what bothers most fans. It reduces your connection to the game. You have to emotionally detach yourself from goals when they go in, and wait.

There are issues such as scope for manipulation and the precision with which they can make an offside call. I think they should change the offside rule because I don't believe they can do what they claim, i.e. measure absolutely whether a player is offside or not. With all the variables involved there could be a significant error.

We're guessing. The fact we're guessing suggests that the process isn't so good, otherise they'd be open about how it operates.

I suspect if they let the cameras in to see what they do, people will realise it's fallibilities and it will get thrown out. This is making me suspicious that it's not all its cracked up to be. if it works, and you can reliable reproduce all the weekend's calls again and again and again, then show it to the public, and more people will accept it, but the fact they haven't makes me wonder whether it's reliable

 

[SWP's back]

Is it?

What picture are the VAR seeing to make their judgement and if its better quality why do we not get the same so we can all say fair enough, offside?

These cameras can pick up a fucking nose hair at 100 yards mate yet the still looked like a grainy CCTV shot.

Why?

Because even at 50 FPS a player accelerating can move 15cm in a frame (at Olympic pace) so as the exposure has a finite time per frame, of course a fast moving player will be blurred. But that isn’t an issue as they still click on the pixel furthest forward.

 

[uweuweuwe]

I would hope that after watching videos of lines being drawn from players shoulders to the ground that Pep is sat at home thinking of ways to reduce the size of defenders shoulders. Medical procedure to remove collar bone, genetically produce thinner players or playing 8 year old children in a back 3. Obviously while stroking his white cat and watching his pet sharks playfully through around a uefa representative.