VAR Discussion Thread - 2023/24 | PL clubs to vote on whether to scrap VAR (pg413)

[Gorton_Tubster]

I am a FOC like Postecoglou, and I say good for him. Football never had a huge problem with obvious mistakes. There were a few absolute howlers that could have been corrected by VAR, some serious missed incidents that could have been corrected by VAR, and myriad small mistakes that evened out and gave all of us an opportunity to go ballistic and shout insults at the ref. Leave those alone for Christ's sake. If VAR can't see something is a problem at normal speed in one viewing, offside included, just let it go .....

Quite frankly, this idea that VAR can get everything right is a nonsense, so at least implement it in a way that doesn't spoil the enjoyment of the most important people - the people who go to the ground. So, forget the hopeless search for absolute truth and make it more stadium friendly. If it isn't possible for the referee or the linesmen to see a problem, don't give anything. If anything is missed in the match by the referee and VAR, take action retrospectively.

All everyone wants is referees doing their job as best, and as fairly, as they can with any howlers or anything they miss, because they are human, corrected immediately. And then to complain about it afterwards.

I remember the days when teams would find out who the ref was, what sort of ref, if he gives red cards or lets the game flow. Nothing wrong with that, but they have tried to science the shit out of it. Its impossible to define every single free kick or handball. And its totally impossible to have consistency at 100%.

They know this in rugby and they tell their viewers that, they set that expectation. in football they poison the waters with biases meaning we get this shite.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I think the red card in the Celtic game last night highlights an issue with VAR which I’ve seen a few times but is rarely talked about in detail. I’m not saying it definitely wasn’t a red, it was one of those orange card challenges that you either get or you don’t.

Not talking about hand balls or offsides… but when adjudicating for red card tackles, in my opinion, the referee should not be allowed to freeze frame the challenge. You simply can’t make a decision like that based on one frame of footage, you should have to see the full motion - preferably at full speed. And as VAR is a procedural process they absolutely need to have a precise checklist of things they’re considering like the TMO in rugby. And the comms as they go through that checklist should be broadcast. That is the only way we’re going to get anything resembling consistency.

There’s a lot of procedural issues with VAR. It feels like any of us could instantly suggest about 10 things that would improve it. The obstinance of the authorities to change even the smallest thing is incredibly frustrating, the VAR process has hardly been adapted at all since its introduction and we’re now in year 6 of its implementation - which for me is just unacceptable. FIFA have just assumed they got it perfect first time and that is what is killing its reputation as a useful tool.

It needs to be improved and adapted, no system like this works perfectly first time.

agree completely. It could work for the benefit of the game as TMO has in Rugby. The difference is POGMOL don't want transparency and believe they have got things right.
I found Pep's comments interesting during his PC. He looked like even he is struggling to conclude the best way forward in a maelstrom of emotion and invective.
I think all any supporter wants are that the lotg are 1) clear 2) applied consistently whatever team is playing 3) that decisions made are transparent and rationale explained. Video technology can help with that and should. Clubs, players and referees are jointly responsible for making that work and should lock themselves in a room until an approach is agreed.

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

You cant have consistency when everyone has different opinions, everyone including refs. There's no such thing as consistency.

 

[Saddleworth2]

You cant have consistency when everyone has different opinions, everyone including refs. There's no such thing as consistency.

Of course there is. If you didn't have consistency then there is no point having laws of the game. They have to be consistently applied or you get the current mess. It doesn't have to be that way though.

Many decisions are subjective, but as long as there is transparency regarding the rationale for a subjective decision and it is consistent with the lotg then you still have consistency. If you watch RU and see how referees/TMO deal with deliberate head tackles then you will know exactly what I mean. You might not agree with the decision 100%, but you do understand it.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Of course there is. If you didn't have consistency then there is no point having laws of the game. They have to be consistently applied or you get the current mess. It doesn't have to be that way though.

Many decisions are subjective, but as long as there is transparency regarding the rationale for a subjective decision and it is consistent with the lotg then you still have consistency. If you watch RU and see how referees/TMO deal with deliberate head tackles then you will know exactly what I mean. You might not agree with the decision 100%, but you do understand it.

We should aim for consistency for sure and the only way to do that would be to keep evolving VAR assistance rather than scrapping it and going back to how it was, as we no there's zero chance of consistency that way.

However, especially with social media, no matter what system you have in place it will always be easy to point to one decision and compare it with another decision months before and say 'WHERE IS THE CONSISTENCY?!!'

 

[halfcenturyup]

You cant have consistency when everyone has different opinions, everyone including refs. There's no such thing as consistency.

You can, at least, have consistency of process even if the decisions themselves are subjective.

 

[halfcenturyup]

We should aim for consistency for sure and the only way to do that would be to keep evolving VAR assistance rather than scrapping it and going back to how it was, as we no there's zero chance of consistency that way.

However, especially with social media, no matter what system you have in place it will always be easy to point to one decision and compare it with another decision months before and say 'WHERE IS THE CONSISTENCY?!!'

For the unpteenth time. People will always complain. They complained about decisions before VAR, they complain about decisions now there is a poor VAR and they will complain if there is ever a perfect VAR. That isn't the problem. The problem is having a poor VAR and doing nothing, it seems, to improve it, so people start to question, quite rightly, whether it is worth it.

 

[chesterguy]

What they need to do is agree specific protocols for events such as if they are checking a goal as in rugby the referee states "Is there any reason not to award a try the onfield decision is try" then all that has to happen is they check and say we agree with your decision or disagree. They show the ref what they are looking at if they disagree and then the ref and VAR and linesmen discuss it as they are looking at the footage and then the referee makes the decision. The crowd hear and see the footage so buy into why the decision is made I dont know why cant football do something the same

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

Of course there is. If you didn't have consistency then there is no point having laws of the game. They have to be consistently applied or you get the current mess. It doesn't have to be that way though.

Many decisions are subjective, but as long as there is transparency regarding the rationale for a subjective decision and it is consistent with the lotg then you still have consistency. If you watch RU and see how referees/TMO deal with deliberate head tackles then you will know exactly what I mean. You might not agree with the decision 100%, but you do understand it.

Maybe I dont understand then. I agree with halfcentury in consistency in process even if the resullting decision is wrong? Is that what youre saying? Because I agree.

 

[stonerblue]

There was contact, albeit minor.

Think it was for Sheff Utd too.

The SW player kicked the wolves lads foot as he was diving over.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

The SW player kicked the wolves lads foot as he was diving over.

There was still contact, which is different to a dive with no contact, the thing Mark was asking for examples of.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Maybe I dont understand then. I agree with halfcentury in consistency in process even if the resullting decision is wrong? Is that what youre saying? Because I agree.

There are Lotg and there are guidelines to help referees make decisions. As long as they are consistently applied and decisions transparently explained (as in RU) then that is all we should expect. Some decisions are subjective and could be called one way by one referee or another way by a second ref. That doesn't make either decision 'wrong' as long as they have stuck to the guidelines/lotg and gone through process correctly. Thats the same as it is in RU and imo its way, way fairer and better than what we have in PL.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

No, this thread is going around in circles, nothing new is ever added to the debate as all the angles were covered in the first five pages and then repeated in the next ten.
VAR is shit, it's ruined the spontaneity of the game and tried to reduce an analogue set of laws into a digital format.
Stop flogging a dead horse and go and haunt another thread for a bit.

Why do you bother reading it then?

Is it simply to get wound up?

 

[stonerblue]

There was still contact, which is different to a dive with no contact, the thing Mark was asking for examples of.

no it isnt. He dived into the player. Even with contact it was never a pen and i'd expect a room full of 'experts', having analysed the footage from every angle numerous times to come to the same conclusion.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

no it isnt. He dived into the player. Even with contact it was never a pen and i'd expect a room full of 'experts', having analysed the footage from every angle numerous times to come to the same conclusion.

The officials didn’t seem to share your opinion.

 

[Pingu the Penguin]

There was still contact, which is different to a dive with no contact, the thing Mark was asking for examples of.

A dives a dive!

That incident was a great one in terms of how VAR should work. The ref could have stopped the game and gone across to the screen and took a look at the angles and either confirmed or change his decision. Or waved okay on and let it go out and then go to the screen then. That’s a tool that helps referees make better decisions. Literally every man and his dog could see that should never ever have been a pen for Sheff U but VAR let it be

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

A dives a dive!

That incident was a great one in terms of how VAR should work. The ref could have stopped the game and gone across to the screen and took a look at the angles and either confirmed or change his decision. Or waved okay on and let it go out and then go to the screen then. That’s a tool that helps referees make better decisions. Literally every man and his dog could see that should never ever have been a pen for Sheff U but VAR let it be

I don't really disagree with you. I’d love VAR to get referees to look at the monitor more for all big, subjective decisions, without telling them they are wrong. I believe that if the ref had rewatched that penalty, he’d have changed his decision.

Clear and obvious can hide behind the bar being moved higher or lower and also just verifying their mate’s decision.

 

[stonerblue]

The officials didn’t seem to share your opinion.

No shit sherlock :)
Oddly enough, ex-players and managers did.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

No shit sherlock :)
Oddly enough, ex-players and managers did.

Are these ex players and managers ones you think should be running OGMOL or are we talking Clinton Morrison, Jamie Redknapp, Paul Merson and Micah Akabusi?

 

[Damanino]

what happened with that show of Webb and Own discussing ref decisions?
It was clearly a thing when we scored some offside-not offside goal maybe vs Fulham Webb saying it should have been off and also at Kovacic orange card should have been a red.

I want his opinion of the Havertz challenge discussed in prime time on TV.