BlueHammer85
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Yes? It’s good news. Hopefully semi automated will be an improvement and speed up decision making in time.
VAR Discussion Thread | 2024/25
- Thread starter SebastianBlue
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Yes? It’s good news. Hopefully semi automated will be an improvement and speed up decision making in time.
I’d guess that quite a few folk think VAR has lost the plot already.
Trevor Morley's Tache
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Maybe you should be asking why the PGMOL seem so afraid of transparency and independent scrutiny?
TheBeautifulGame
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He should change his name from BlueHammer to BlueFlipFlopper lol. First he agreed with me about VAR rightly not getting involved on the Tarkowski clearance kick, about keeping that a yellow. When I pointed out that the media pundits were overreacting and not interpreting the situation correctly, he countered with his usual "social media" excuse. But we initially agreed on the principle of the decision! Then he did what VARs and media pundits have been doing for years since VAR came into existence, which is fixating on the impact itself, rather than the overall situation, the cause and effect. After "reviewing it further" he did a 180 on that and decided ironically that his precious VAR was wrong and should have intervened and turned it into a red. You can't make this stuff up.
And now he's changing his tune on Semi-Automated offsides as well. Well which is it Hammer, make up your damn mind lol.
Hammer's flip flopping and inability to stick with decisions perfectly encapsulates VAR's very essence. Take the Tarkowski situation. Somehow "intent" has been assigned after rewatching the slow motion replay of the impact to the calf to conclude that a red was warranted. It is impossible to assign intent given that it wasn't a slide tackle or even a "challenge", which is inherently subjective and open to interpretation rather than whether something was a "letter of the law" foul or not. As a reminder, it was the follow through of a clearance kick which he successfully got off clean. The impact was dangerous to the player who received the boot, but it was not even a foul in the technical sense. When you get the ball off cleanly as it were, you've played the ball, the player who was hit was the one going into dangerously and he paid for it.
I just find Hammer's about-face so incredibly telling and representative of the state of VAR as it exists.
TheBeautifulGame
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Their debut of it was a disaster. 8 minutes, longest VAR review ever. But hey lets give it a few years before we judge it.
Crying? Everyone's up a wall about the pettiness of marginal offsides decisions that chalk off goals.
Of course you don't, because if Lino's put the flag up, incorrectly or not, that prevents VAR from being able to review it and have the result of the play stand as it was allowed to continue. Of course the Flip side to that is, if the Lino keeps his flag down and it was indeed offside, play would have then been wrongly allowed to continue and play would need to be stopped unnaturally at some point for any such review to occur. If a Lino's decision of keeping the flag down wrongly was corrected through a VAR review, you then have to delete the stretch of play that was fraudulently allowed to continue, in which a number of things could have happened, (a goal scored, a corner kick given, a foul given, etc) which would only add to the confusion.
As I've explained several times, the idea of a Lino being told not to do his job any more but to keep his flag down to allow VAR to "potentially" be able to correct the decision is fundamentally flawed, in that even if it were to work and correct a Lino decision of wrong keeping the flag down, you've already caused play to continue when it shouldn't and would then have to delete that section of play and you would also lose the time in that section of fraudulently play.
TheBeautifulGame
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Unless there's congestion in the box that is. Then all bets are off, and they're back to drawing lines in a panic.
Trevor Morley's Tache
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Or the shonky cameras at Klanfiled momentarily stop working at the most inopportune moment?
halfcenturyup
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Assuming they even notice like that case in Holland where a defender's leg was attached in error to the attacker and the wrong decision given. 100% accurate to the mm my arse.
Stephen230
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I’m not the one claiming that I can ‘guarantee’ something is happening that is expressly banned.
Trevor Morley's Tache
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I say it's happening until someone can prove otherwise.
Wouldn't it be nice to have independent scrutiny to prove either way, and not have to question why the PGMOL are so afraid of it?
Stephen230
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You can think and say whatever you like. Although you didn’t answer what you think their motive is?
I’m also not sure who exactly all the people calling for independent VARs are wanting in there?
All referees down to National League level are affiliated to the PGMOL. Are you wanting referees only currently deemed good enough for level 6 and lower on VAR duties in the Premier League? Or other people from somewhere?
Trevor Morley's Tache
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I suspect their motive is 'covering their arses'. There have been some incredibly suspect decisions that will have had an effect on final league position, and as you know, that will have a financial implication, often $millions. Imagin a club finding out they missed out on a Champions League place because of a 'mistake' that the PGMOL were fully aware of and knowingly covered it up?
I'd like to see a fully independent audit of processes and procedures, with access to all data, including comm's between officials. There should be no hiding place. If they want to use VAR to ensure the 'correct' decision is made, then they shouldn't be afraid of external scrutiny.
TheBeautifulGame
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SPFL club demand VAR change as rescinded red card becomes 'eighth incorrect decision against us'
Sending off deemed to be another VAR error
www.scotsman.com
Motherwell defender Kofi Balmer was sent off in the 26th minute of Saturday’s 2-0 William Hill Premiership defeat by Kilmarnock at Rugby Park after catching Fraser Murray on the thigh as he followed through on a clearance. Referee Matthew MacDermid issued the punishment after being alerted by video assistant Andrew Dallas.
^^Sounds awfully familiar to something we were just talking about that happened in the PL! A follow through on a clearance and the media outrage associated with it, may well have influenced the VAR decision-making here in the SPFL. After all, it was a VAR who alerted the referee who then decided to send him off. And lo and behold, after the appeal, it was determined that not only shouldn't it have been a red card, but they didn't even deem it worthy of a yellow card since it was, as I said last week, it was a clearance follow through!
However, the appeal panel convened by the Scottish Football Association on Tuesday did not even view the incident worthy of a yellow card with a decision made to rescind the red card.
"This is the second time this season the club has had to go through the time, effort and expenditure to appeal a red card decision."
"We have concerns that VAR felt that this was an obvious refereeing error in the first place. Again, the on-field review has come out with the wrong outcome."
"We spend a significant six-figure sum each season towards the running costs of VAR at the stadium."
"There have been eight instances so far this season where Motherwell have been directly impacted by what has subsequently been deemed an incorrect referee or VAR decision."
"This was as recent as last week when a tackle on Andy Halliday (by Aberdeen’s Pape Gueye) went unpunished, and the SFA’s KMI panel viewed it as a unanimous red card."
"These continued errors throughout the season, for all clubs, will have a direct impact on where teams will finish in the final standings, which obviously determines finances for each club."
"We hope that with the financial commitment put on the club to use VAR, combined with the frustration our fans get from the game due to the intervention from VAR, we see significant improvement in its implementation going forward."
Motherwell cite 8 VAR sins in wake of Kofi Balmer red card blunder
Balmer's dismissal against Killie at Rugby Park last weekend has now been overturned
So lets get this straight - VAR is costing each club in the SPFL a six-figure sum of money per season for the running costs of VAR. So not only VAR is spoiling the game and costing a ton of money, but it's getting a multitude of key decisions involving cards wrong which are being overturned on appeal post-match.
First lets try to calculate the costs of VAR in the SPFL each season. If it costs each club a six-figure sum each season, and there's 42 clubs in the league, well you do the math. That's likely in the range of 20-30 million for the league each season, in addition to how much VAR costs the league itself, vs the costs that each club has to put in.
‘Prices have risen 800% since 1990’: the Premier League fans’ unions campaigning for affordable tickets
Bitter rivalries are being set aside, as supporters join forces to push back against ‘absolute disgrace’ of cost increases
www.theguardian.com
No wonder why ticket prices are soaring. VAR is a cancer to the match going football fan in every way imaginable.
Nottingham Forest raised their prices by an average of 20% while Aston Villa marked their return to European football’s biggest stage by charging fans up to £97 for a Champions League game.
The FSA says there is no justification for the escalating prices and attack on concession tickets, even accounting for the rise in clubs’ operational costs.
"The rise in clubs' operational costs", anotherwords VAR costs.
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TheBeautifulGame
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Is VAR taking the intensity out of the Premier League?
Mark Chapman, Shay Given and Troy Deeney discuss the effect the video assistant referee is having on football.
www.bbc.com
Whether or not you agree with Bruno Fernandes comments, the fact is that VAR is clearly causing football to be less intense. It's becoming the equivalent to "Flag Football" as was said in that segment, an American NFL analogy of players these days not being allowed to tackle and go full speed like they were in bygone eras.
It's a very apt analogy to what VAR has done to football.
Ange Postecoglou: "VAR is killing the game. Football is not the game it used to be.
The referee gave the goal and then needed 6 minutes to disallow the goal. It's crazy. It's ruining the spectacle but no one seems to care. It is what it is, mate."
We do care. The vast majority of the fans care. Everyone's fed up with VAR, only some have the balls to speak out about it!
VAR has got to go FULL STOP!!
TheBeautifulGame
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United receive new penalty verdict as unseen footage 'clarifies' City decision
The latest Manchester United news after Manchester City drew the Manchester derby 0-0 at Old Trafford, during which Alejandro Garnacho was denied a potential penalty
The former Professional Game Match Officials Limited (PGMOL) general manager Keith Hackett believes Manchester United should have been awarded a penalty during the Manchester derby.
"I've had the opportunity of looking closely at the replays shown by beIN Sports. The quality of their technical equipment gives clarity to that early decision in the Manchester derby. "Referee John Brooks, close to the incident, waved away appeals for a penalty kick. However, looking at the beIN Sports replay, evidence shows that the offence was on the line, and the outcome should have been the award of a penalty kick. "Technology on these tight decisions is essential, allowing VAR Tierney to make the correct call, rather than the inaccurate intervention and result."
If Hackett sees clarity from the technology, then why didn't the VAR officials see that same clarity and act upon it?
That verdict from Hackett differed from the one expressed by his former colleague Mike Dean.
Of course. No one can agree on anything despite all the technology and supposed "clear" visuals in the world. One person sees one thing another sees it a different way, or interprets it a different way.
Dean said during the Sky commentary of the match: "I think it's a good on-field call by John Brooks; he's waited a couple of seconds to see if it can be passed to the right wing, but it hasn't, so he pulls it back.
"For me, it's just outside so the right call, a good call at this early stage of the game."
Perhaps it was Gary Lineker who said it best on MOTD in regards to what occured in the Arsenal Everton match :
"This is why VAR can never work in the current format."
Just leave out the "in the current format" part Gary. VAR can never work because it's pragmatically unworkable and a source of immense frustration and controversy.
Reddit Comment : "I think what he's saying is that they now have to judge whether a foul is enough to overturn the original decision, and that creates a problem. Before, regardless of opinion, it was either a foul or it wasn’t. But now, thanks to VAR, we’ve entered a grey area—where the same offense might be called a foul or not, simply depending on the original call."
Arsenal: Everton penalty award was wrong as Myles Lewis-Skelly foul was outside the area, says former referee
Not for the first time this season, the young defender was on the wrong end of a refereeing decision
Arsenal handed new Everton penalty verdict after Lewis-Skelly flashpoint
Arsenal and Mikel Arteta fumed after Everton were awarded a penalty during the 1-1 draw at Goodison Park.
Even Dermy disagrees with the decision.
We're in a state of perpetual and consistent outrage brought on by VAR and the way in which it makes decisions.
TheBeautifulGame
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Paul Merson blasts 'absolute shocker' incident at Arsenal v Real Madrid
Paul Merson has blasted a shocking officiating situation in Arsenal's stunning Champions League match win Real Madrid at the Emirates.
There were no real protests from any Arsenal players on the pitch, with the distance between Rice and the centre-back no more than a few yards.
However, VAR deemed a break lasting multiple minutes as necessary, killing much of the momentum of what had been a fast-paced game up to that point.
“But it literally just hits the defender! It can’t be a penalty! Oh it can’t be a penalty, surely not. No it won’t be a penalty, surely. Asensio, it hits his arm there, he comes to block it and it hits his arm, but we’re two minutes in now [to the review], this is a worry if you’re a Real Madrid fan.
“Oh, no, they’re playing on now. They [the VARs] must have gone to the toilet.”
Host Julian Warren then pointed out it took VAR several minutes to come to a conclusion, whilst Merson was convinced immediately it was not a penalty.
Merson then added: “Oh it was one second. As I said, they must have been to the toilet, they have to wait for him, but yeah a shocker, absolute shocker.
“Just stopping the game, the game’s been so good, end to end, 14 minutes gone, and then they stop it for a minute or two minutes there to have a look at something that’s definitely, 100% not a penalty.”
This is what a VAR review does. It halts the momentum and natural flow of the match. And you never get that momentum back!! A single VAR review, particularly one that is not prompted by a decision from the on-field referee, affects the natural progression of a match. The match needs to be able to maintain a frenetic pace from start to finish, or ebbing and flowing from a fast start naturally.
Exclusive: FIFA insider slams VAR after 'shocker' claim in Arsenal vs Real Madrid
A former FIFA referee has hit out at the officials for what they did in Arsenal's incredible win over Real Madrid.
“I agree with Paul Merson this is not handball and should not have been reviewed. Poor intervention by VAR. The ball struck the player who arm was in a natural position.
“I wish VAR would stick to the criteria and only intervene on clear and obvious errors. This type of intervention impacts on the flow of the game.”
In other news :
Second report reveals UEFA edited VAR footage in Julián Álvarez’s penalty controversy
This past Friday, the International Union of Atlético de Madrid Supporters' Clubs released an expert report highlighting anomalies in the video presented by UEFA to
www.mundodeportivo.com
Second report reveals UEFA edited VAR footage in Julián Álvarez’s penalty controversy
“The analyzed file lacks essential and original metadata from the VAR system. There is no hash or cryptographic signature to verify its authenticity, and its technical parameters are inconsistent with those typically used by the Video Assistant Referee (VAR). Therefore, from a technical standpoint, it cannot be confirmed that this video segment is the original sourced from VAR. The forensic analysis results do not rule out the possibility that the video has been edited—and thus altered—compared to the original. Moreover, the discrepancies and incompatibilities between the known technical specifications of VAR and those of the analyzed video strongly suggest that the footage was not recorded and captured by VAR, but is instead the result of an edited version of the original images.”
In its second conclusion, the report goes as far as to claim that the so-called “double touch”—the reason referee Szymon Marciniak ultimately nullified the penalty—never occurred.
“As previously stated, aside from the inability to verify the originality of the video provided by UEFA, this expert, after conducting a frame-by-frame analysis, observes no movement or reaction of the ball indicating a possible contact with the left foot prior to the penalty being taken with the right foot. As such, there is no confirmed evidence of the player making contact with the ball using both feet—either simultaneously or consecutively.”
The full report will be released in the coming days, reinforcing suspicions that the video UEFA published to justify the penalty annulment had been tampered with.
UEFA claimed at the time that the footage corresponded to what was viewed in the VOR room during Marciniak’s alleged consultation before disallowing Julián Álvarez’s goal.
Notably, the VAR decision was made in under a minute—surprisingly fast compared to other much clearer plays, which often take significantly longer to review.
Inconsistencies, allegations of UEFA doctoring footage in order to cover their arses, the VAR saga goes on and on.
johnnytapia
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Yeah, but it’s “progress “. And people who don’t actually go to the game think it’s great.SPFL club demand VAR change as rescinded red card becomes 'eighth incorrect decision against us'
Sending off deemed to be another VAR error
Motherwell defender Kofi Balmer was sent off in the 26th minute of Saturday’s 2-0 William Hill Premiership defeat by Kilmarnock at Rugby Park after catching Fraser Murray on the thigh as he followed through on a clearance. Referee Matthew MacDermid issued the punishment after being alerted by video assistant Andrew Dallas.
^^Sounds awfully familiar to something we were just talking about that happened in the PL! A follow through on a clearance and the media outrage associated with it, may well have influenced the VAR decision-making here in the SPFL. After all, it was a VAR who alerted the referee who then decided to send him off. And lo and behold, after the appeal, it was determined that not only shouldn't it have been a red card, but they didn't even deem it worthy of a yellow card since it was, as I said last week, it was a clearance follow through!
However, the appeal panel convened by the Scottish Football Association on Tuesday did not even view the incident worthy of a yellow card with a decision made to rescind the red card.
"This is the second time this season the club has had to go through the time, effort and expenditure to appeal a red card decision."
"We have concerns that VAR felt that this was an obvious refereeing error in the first place. Again, the on-field review has come out with the wrong outcome."
"We spend a significant six-figure sum each season towards the running costs of VAR at the stadium."
"There have been eight instances so far this season where Motherwell have been directly impacted by what has subsequently been deemed an incorrect referee or VAR decision."
"This was as recent as last week when a tackle on Andy Halliday (by Aberdeen’s Pape Gueye) went unpunished, and the SFA’s KMI panel viewed it as a unanimous red card."
"These continued errors throughout the season, for all clubs, will have a direct impact on where teams will finish in the final standings, which obviously determines finances for each club."
"We hope that with the financial commitment put on the club to use VAR, combined with the frustration our fans get from the game due to the intervention from VAR, we see significant improvement in its implementation going forward."
Motherwell cite 8 VAR sins in wake of Kofi Balmer red card blunder
Balmer's dismissal against Killie at Rugby Park last weekend has now been overturnedwww.dailyrecord.co.uk
So lets get this straight - VAR is costing each club in the SPFL a six-figure sum of money per season for the running costs of VAR. So not only VAR is spoiling the game and costing a ton of money, but it's getting a multitude of key decisions involving cards wrong which are being overturned on appeal post-match.
First lets try to calculate the costs of VAR in the SPFL each season. If it costs each club a six-figure sum each season, and there's 42 clubs in the league, well you do the math. That's likely in the range of 20-30 million for the league each season, in addition to how much VAR costs the league itself, vs the costs that each club has to put in.
‘Prices have risen 800% since 1990’: the Premier League fans’ unions campaigning for affordable tickets
Bitter rivalries are being set aside, as supporters join forces to push back against ‘absolute disgrace’ of cost increases
No wonder why ticket prices are soaring. VAR is a cancer to the match going football fan in every way imaginable.
Nottingham Forest raised their prices by an average of 20% while Aston Villa marked their return to European football’s biggest stage by charging fans up to £97 for a Champions League game.
The FSA says there is no justification for the escalating prices and attack on concession tickets, even accounting for the rise in clubs’ operational costs.
"The rise in clubs' operational costs", anotherwords VAR costs.
BlueHammer85
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Like who ? I’ve had season ticket last 30+ years (until this season) so I know full well the game without it and with it, I just have more of a memory of being outraged by the refs decisions throughout the match and disgusted to find out when I got back in car to hear the radio that we’ve been robbed by a bad ref once again, VAR has many negatives and needs constant ways to evolve and improve- but I’d rather officials have some form of tech help to get the vast majority of decisions correct, I’m equally as frustrated when there is to long a delay or even worse get the outcome completely wrong.
Stephen230
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SPFL club demand VAR change as rescinded red card becomes 'eighth incorrect decision against us'
Sending off deemed to be another VAR error
Motherwell defender Kofi Balmer was sent off in the 26th minute of Saturday’s 2-0 William Hill Premiership defeat by Kilmarnock at Rugby Park after catching Fraser Murray on the thigh as he followed through on a clearance. Referee Matthew MacDermid issued the punishment after being alerted by video assistant Andrew Dallas.
^^Sounds awfully familiar to something we were just talking about that happened in the PL! A follow through on a clearance and the media outrage associated with it, may well have influenced the VAR decision-making here in the SPFL. After all, it was a VAR who alerted the referee who then decided to send him off. And lo and behold, after the appeal, it was determined that not only shouldn't it have been a red card, but they didn't even deem it worthy of a yellow card since it was, as I said last week, it was a clearance follow through!
However, the appeal panel convened by the Scottish Football Association on Tuesday did not even view the incident worthy of a yellow card with a decision made to rescind the red card.
"This is the second time this season the club has had to go through the time, effort and expenditure to appeal a red card decision."
"We have concerns that VAR felt that this was an obvious refereeing error in the first place. Again, the on-field review has come out with the wrong outcome."
"We spend a significant six-figure sum each season towards the running costs of VAR at the stadium."
"There have been eight instances so far this season where Motherwell have been directly impacted by what has subsequently been deemed an incorrect referee or VAR decision."
"This was as recent as last week when a tackle on Andy Halliday (by Aberdeen’s Pape Gueye) went unpunished, and the SFA’s KMI panel viewed it as a unanimous red card."
"These continued errors throughout the season, for all clubs, will have a direct impact on where teams will finish in the final standings, which obviously determines finances for each club."
"We hope that with the financial commitment put on the club to use VAR, combined with the frustration our fans get from the game due to the intervention from VAR, we see significant improvement in its implementation going forward."
Motherwell cite 8 VAR sins in wake of Kofi Balmer red card blunder
Balmer's dismissal against Killie at Rugby Park last weekend has now been overturned
So lets get this straight - VAR is costing each club in the SPFL a six-figure sum of money per season for the running costs of VAR. So not only VAR is spoiling the game and costing a ton of money, but it's getting a multitude of key decisions involving cards wrong which are being overturned on appeal post-match.
First lets try to calculate the costs of VAR in the SPFL each season. If it costs each club a six-figure sum each season, and there's 42 clubs in the league, well you do the math. That's likely in the range of 20-30 million for the league each season, in addition to how much VAR costs the league itself, vs the costs that each club has to put in.
‘Prices have risen 800% since 1990’: the Premier League fans’ unions campaigning for affordable tickets
Bitter rivalries are being set aside, as supporters join forces to push back against ‘absolute disgrace’ of cost increases
No wonder why ticket prices are soaring. VAR is a cancer to the match going football fan in every way imaginable.
Nottingham Forest raised their prices by an average of 20% while Aston Villa marked their return to European football’s biggest stage by charging fans up to £97 for a Champions League game.
The FSA says there is no justification for the escalating prices and attack on concession tickets, even accounting for the rise in clubs’ operational costs.
"The rise in clubs' operational costs", anotherwords VAR costs.
Not arguing over your main points but it’s only the 12 SPL clubs that have VAR, not all 42 league clubs.
The lengthy check for a potential penalty for handball against Madrid was ridiculous. The hand was low and it was a volleyed effort right next to him.
I have a feeling they were never going to award it after seeing the 1st replay angle and the forensic check was just posturing to muddy the VARdrid narrative.
I have a feeling they were never going to award it after seeing the 1st replay angle and the forensic check was just posturing to muddy the VARdrid narrative.