VAR Discussion Thread | 2024/25

VAR isn’t the problem, it is the dozy fuckers operating it that are.

After all they are the same useless twats we witness every week making the on field decisions.

Until VAR is a completely independent body answerable to the Clubs, players and supporters then nothing will change.
 
Gray said:
VAR isn’t the problem, it is the dozy fuckers operating it that are.

After all they are the same useless twats we witness every week making the on field decisions.

Until VAR is a completely independent body answerable to the Clubs, players and supporters then nothing will change.
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Do you mean to tell me it's not? I am shocked.
 
halfcenturyup said:
Are you saying (amongst many other things) that the PL SAOT has a chip in the ball? If you are saying that, it doesn't.
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No, no. I can see the confusion with how I worded that, though. I simply meant that the Champions League is (also) too poor to have the chip "like" (as in, as well as) the Premier league. Given the length of the VAR review for that Arsenal goal reversal due to marginal offsides, well it was an agonizing wait for those fans and as I pointed out, the optics of that entire situation was just horrendous on any level, regardless of the accuracy of the decision, which as you pointed out even that is very much in doubt and largely unprovable due to the guesswork involved.

The impression that the world has now in that in England that SAOT in in play and decisions should be quick, but whether it's the PL or the Champions league, both the PL and the CL don't have the ability or the funds to have the chip in the ball, meaning that offsides decisions are still done manually which means it's not really SAOT now is it, meaning it's been largely false advertising to suggest it is in play, at least in the PL, as they admit that without it can't be as accurate nor can decisions be as quick when during it in this way. But if you didn't know any better, you would be under the impression that SAOT is being utilized in these kinds of matches, but in reality, not so much. It's also interesting that such a situation as in the Arsenal match would surely fall into the "too much congestion" category which as it would seem could cause more challenges to ensuring accuracy.
 
Gray said:
VAR isn’t the problem, it is the dozy fuckers operating it that are.

After all they are the same useless twats we witness every week making the on field decisions.

Until VAR is a completely independent body answerable to the Clubs, players and supporters then nothing will change.
Click to expand...
I get your frustration but I'm afraid that by blaming "those operating it" you are, in effect, excusing the system as a whole. As I've pointed out several times, the system and the people running it are one in the same. After all, the people running it even refer to themselves as VARs.

While obviously those running are certainly useless, inept and inconsistent beyond measure, if I'm honest, I don't think they even have a real chance at success given how poorly designed and how short sighted the system was from the beginning. It was always a delusional endeavor from the beginning, given simply the continuous nature of football and how the vast majority of decisions are largely subjective.

So I understand where you're coming from and you're not wrong, but every time I hear this argument of "it's not VAR, it's the people running it" in my mind that's just a way to excuse the system itself. The system is dysfunctional inherently in terms of what it set out to do. While those running it can and certainly should be criticized, I'm of the mind that no matter who's running it, it's always going to be bent given that it is impractical and not designed in a way that could ever do anything that would justify its introduction. It was always never going to work, no matter who's tasked with running it. The issue with VAR is systemic, and those operating it are inherently part of that system.
 
I hate the marginal, milli-frame offsides.not just the time it takes but how the frame, when the ball is kicked, seems to be a best guess, visual decision which may also be mili-frames out. I wish they'd,.go back to something akin to the clear daylight rule. One look on VAR, is it clearly offside/onside, overturn or stick with on field decision.

The common sense - its to overturn clear errors, reasoning for the existence of VAR seems to have been forgotten
 
TheBeautifulGame said:
I get your frustration but I'm afraid that by blaming "those operating it" you are, in effect, excusing the system as a whole. As I've pointed out several times, the system and the people running it are one in the same. After all, the people running it even refer to themselves as VARs.

While obviously those running are certainly useless and inconsistent beyond measure, if I'm honest, I don't think they even have a real chance at success given how poorly designed and how short sighted the system was from the beginning.

So I understand where you're coming from and you're not wrong, but every time I hear this argument of "it's not VAR, it's the people running it" in my mind that's just a way to excuse the system itself. The system is dysfunctional inherently in terms of what it set out to do. While those running it can and certainly should be criticized, I'm of the mind that no matter who's running it, it's always going to be bent given that it is impractical and not designed in a way that could ever do anything that would justify its introduction. It was always never going to work, no matter who's running it. The issue with VAR is systemic, and those operating it are inherently part of that system.
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Semi automated is so much better than drawing those bendy lines across the pitch that can be manipulated, as it was for the rags cup semi final last year
The delay issue that happened in the arse PSG game was because the offside player was in a very crowded penalty area amongst numerous other players, so they had to be sorted and removed
It's not perfect, but will improve
 
RiversideBlue said:
I hate the marginal, milli-frame offsides.not just the time it takes but how the frame, when the ball is kicked, seems to be a best guess, visual decision which may also be mili-frames out. I wish they'd,.go back to something akin to the clear daylight rule. One look on VAR, is it clearly offside/onside, overturn or stick with on field decision.

The common sense - its to overturn clear errors, reasoning for the existence of VAR seems to have been forgotten
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So do you agree that what happened in that Arsenal match was harsh and that the process that ensued to chalk off that goal was embarrassing on many levels? From the emotional rollercoaster of the fans, who in the moment went mental to then slowly realizing what was about to happen, to the lengthly delay, etc.

I would just say, regardless of how one could try and argue for wanting the best possible accuracy of the decision, that's one thing. But putting that aside, just from an optics standpoint. And I don't mean optics in the technical sense, as in what VAR uses to make the decisions, I just mean optics in a regular sense of just anyone watching or experiencing that situation unfold, well it's embarrassing to watch. Those fans had the moment of a lifetime robbed of them. Had there been no VAR, that would have been a memory that would have lasted a lifetime, that they could have looked back fondly at. Now that whole goal (for Arsenal fans at least) turned into a complete nightmare of emotions. I think you would agree, that accuracy aside (and even that is unprovable to an extent in a situation like that) it's just horrendous for the sport itself every time something like that takes place, regardless of anyone's rooting interest. No fan of any club should ever have to go through something like that.
 
dickie davies said:
Semi automated is so much better than drawing those bendy lines across the pitch that can be manipulated, as it was for the rags cup semi final last year
The delay issue that happened in the arse PSG game was because the offside player was in a very crowded penalty area amongst numerous other players, so they had to be sorted and removed
It's not perfect, but will improve
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It's not quite that simple, because the congestion problem as I understand it is only said to be an issue when using so-called SAOT but without the supposed chip in the ball, which the PL or the CL can't have for a multitude of reasons. And if I'm mistaken about that, then it's even worse than I thought which is scary!

So they might not be drawing lines anymore, but they're still having to do manual work as it pertains to deciding on (guesswork) the frame to use for the moment that the ball was played forward. And then there's the congestion issue.

Meanwhile this half-arsed it would seem use of SAOT has been sold to the public as if it's going to dramatically reduce the time that it takes to make offsides decisions, when in practice, given the way they are using it at least in England, without the chip in the ball, doesn't seem to be reducing the time it takes to arrive at a decision at all. In fact, in many cases it has made reviews even longer. Remember that 8 minute review when they first rolled it out in the PL.

The Arsenal decision seemed to take about as long or maybe even longer than it had been with the lines. It's as if they're only able to use "a part" of the SAOT technology that has been advertised and they have to piece the rest together manually. And it's unclear if the automated part that they are using is affected by congestion or not. The whole situation is demonstrably a shambles. False promises about saving time, no transparency, especially now since we can't even check their lines anymore since now it goes to a CGI graphic which we have no way to even cross check to see if that graphic is consistent with reality.

This is like the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing and yet they continue with this half-arsed part-SAOT part-not pantomime whilst pretending everything is hunky dory. It's just a complete catastrophe on a match to match basis on a multitude of levels.
 
TheBeautifulGame said:
So do you agree that what happened in that Arsenal match was harsh and that the process that ensued to chalk off that goal was embarrassing on many levels? From the emotional rollercoaster of the fans, who in the moment went mental to then slowly realizing what was about to happen, to the lengthly delay, etc.

I would just say, regardless of how one could try and argue for wanting the best possible accuracy of the decision, that's one thing. But putting that aside, just from an optics standpoint. And I don't mean optics in the technical sense, as in what VAR uses to make the decisions, I just mean optics in a regular sense of just anyone watching or experiencing that situation unfold, well it's embarrassing to watch. Those fans had the moment of a lifetime robbed of them. Had there been no VAR, that would have been a memory that would have lasted a lifetime, that they could have looked back fondly at. Now that whole goal (for Arsenal fans at least) turned into a complete nightmare of emotions. I think you would agree, that accuracy aside (and even that is unprovable to an extent in a situation like that) it's just horrendous for the sport itself every time something like that takes place, regardless of anyone's rooting interest. No fan of any club should ever have to go through something like that.
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I do agree. On a separate note, much as I hate the way arsenal play, whoever came up with that set piece is a genius.
 
TheBeautifulGame said:
Remember guys, the all mighty Champions is too poor to have a Chip in the ball like in the Premier League,
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The "chip in the ball" is patented technology owned by Adidas the ball is used in FIFA competitions and not in UEFA or the PL who have to rely on cameras and software to create the image used
 
Gray said:
VAR isn’t the problem, it is the dozy fuckers operating it that are.

After all they are the same useless twats we witness every week making the on field decisions.

Until VAR is a completely independent body answerable to the Clubs, players and supporters then nothing will change.
Click to expand...
VAR is the the dozy fuckers Video Assistant Referee ie other's with opinions the only technology is the recently introduced Semi Automatic Offside Other than that's its human looking at video using slow motion and free frame to look for a clear and obvious error by the on-field ref they then fail to show all the evidence they have looked at and so its subject to bias
 
Blue Mist said:
It took 4 minutes. Would you object to a 10 minute wait as long as they got it correct ?
The longer it takes the more pressure they are under so the chances are it becomes a guess anyway.
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Having watched us get ripped off in the CL in 2018 and 2019 + numerous times in key league matches, yes every day and thrice when we are at the scouser toilet.
 
halfcenturyup said:
I didn't watch the game. Why would I?

But how close was this offside?

I only ask because the best SAOT system on the planet (apparently), the PL version, has a 5 cm tolerance built-in, but the UEFA version doesn't. So how do you know the call was correct? Because UEFA say it was and backs it up with a sexy graphic based on the data you don't know is accurate in the first place?

The implication of the PL system having a tolerance and the UEFA (and FIFA) system not having one is huge. I am surprised no-one mentions it.
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Odd to be commenting on a play when you didn't watch the game
 
halfcenturyup said:
I wasn't commenting on a play. I haven't seen a play for years.

Odd that you think it's odd I was commenting on PL and UEFA SAOT in a thread about VAR, though. Did you not understand the point I was making?
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You replied to my post which was about a specific play. Maybe you responded in error - no sweat.
 
lasereyes said:
You replied to my post which was about a specific play. Maybe you responded in error - no sweat.
Click to expand...

I didn't respond in error. You said the goal was correctly chalked off. I am trying to understand on what basis you think that.

Because the PL SAOT, which is supposed to be the most advanced system out there, has a 5 cm tolerance built into it to take into account inaccuracies and give some element of doubt to the attacker. So, if the Arsenal goal was offside by less than 5 cm it would have been allowed by the PL SAOT because of its tolerance, even though it was disallowed by UEFA SAOT which is supposedly accurate to the mm (which I very much doubt).

That seems like a problem to me. And has been a problem for every toenail offside decision in UEFA (and FIFA) competitions since SAOT was introduced. Some of which had significant repercussions in terms of result.

Hence the question to you, who watched the game, if the offside decision was 5 cm or less.
 
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