VAR Discussion Thread | 2024/25

[blue by birth]

That's quite the analogy there. I'm not sure how to respond to that. No one was killed here by the keeper swatting the ball out, or even hurt.

According to you the keeper was innocent because he didn't know where the line was and was trying to stay in the box .. so by the same principle if you try to do something then you do something else that's illegal you are innocent.
You know full well it should have been a red card..how the fuck can anyone defend the non red card is beyond me.
Kova got a red last night because he did something that denied a goal scoring opportunity albeit near the halfway line and I have no problem with the ref sending him off..yet you seem to say that a keeper pushing the ball away denying a goal scoring opportunity from 20 yards isn't a red.. SERIOUSLY???

 

[TheBeautifulGame]

This is one of the criteria: "Direct red cards (not second yellows): This includes reviewing if the foul was serious enough for a red card".

The handball incident falls under this. You could (and probably would) argue that it says foul, not handball. I would counter that by pointing out that it says includes, and isn't restricted to fouls only. The law is written to prevent injustices. We are not meant to go looking for semantical loopholes to justify incorrect decisions.

Well for one reason or another they did not think that the "foul" was serious enough to be looked at for a red card, or they would have sent the referee to the monitor. The "denial" that it was a denial of a GS opportunity because of how the ball bounced (if that's their official reasoning for not sending the ref to the monitor) makes little sense to me and it sounds like many fans as well.

All I know is that VAR was brought in to prevent injustice and in an FA Cup final two blatantly wrong decisions were not corrected. The handball and the penalty and many are calling for VAR to be gone as a result. Wayne Rooney, many others. It's a damning indictment of VAR to get so many key decisions wrong especially in such an important match. And it begs the question, what's the point of having it if it can't effectively correct key decisions?

 

[TheBeautifulGame]

According to you the keeper was innocent because he didn't know where the line was and was trying to stay in the box .. so by the same principle if you try to do something then you do something else that's illegal you are innocent.
You know full well it should have been a red card..how the fuck can anyone defend the non red card is beyond me.
Kova got a red last night because he did something that denied a goal scoring opportunity albeit near the halfway line and I have no problem with the ref sending him off..yet you seem to say that a keeper pushing the ball away denying a goal scoring opportunity from 20 yards isn't a red.. SERIOUSLY???

You're mischaracterizing what I said. No one said "innocent" only that it would have been in my view "harsh" to send him off for something borderline like that. Even if it was a DOGSO it's not the same as other DOGSO situations in that it was a natural swatting motion of a keeper, something he's allowed to do in the box and most of his body was in the box when it happened. It shouldn't rise to the level of being on par with dangerous play, like elbowing someone in the back of the head on a header, or going studs up and causing injury.

One of the negative aspects about VAR is that's caused changes to the laws and changes to interpretations that attempt to make everything black and white, but what we're finding out is that there's far more nuance then the football powers that be would have you believe. I'm sorry but a keeper swatting a ball on the edge of the penalty area should not be penalized the same as dangerous aggressively play.

 

[TheBeautifulGame]

He was in the box but came out of it to handle the ball..fuck me it's a red card..

I have no issue with your view about that. I just see it a little differently.

 

[blue by birth]

You're mischaracterizing what I said. No one said "innocent" only that it would have been in my view "harsh" to send him off for something borderline like that. Even if it was a DOGSO it's not the same as other DOGSO situations in that it was a natural swatting motion of a keeper, something he's allowed to do in the box and most of his body was in the box when it happened. It shouldn't rise to the level of being on par with dangerous play, like elbowing someone in the back of the head on a header, or going studs up and causing injury.

One of the negative aspects about VAR is that's caused changes to the laws and changes to interpretations that attempt to make everything black and white, but what we're finding out is that there's far more nuance then the football powers that be would have you believe. I'm sorry but a keeper swatting a ball on the edge of the penalty area should not be penalized the same as dangerous aggressively play.

Kova was sent off for a non violent offence last night..no argument about it from me even though it was an instinctive action..if it wasn't denying a goal scoring opportunity then it would be a yellow..the keeper handling it outside the area would also be a yellow but upgraded to a red because of the denial of a goal scoring opportunity .
Everyone seems to agree it was a red apart from you..
Not one fan I spoke to last night at the game said it wasn't a red.
You are entitled to your opinion but you are definitely in the minority regarding this matter.

 

[TheBeautifulGame]

Kova was sent off for a non violent offence last night..no argument about it from me even though it was an instinctive action..if it wasn't denying a goal scoring opportunity then it would be a yellow..the keeper handling it outside the area would also be a yellow but upgraded to a red because of the denial of a goal scoring opportunity .

And Pep wasn't happy about it!! Some key differences between the two situations. Kova wasn't on the "border" of being allowed to do what he did like Henderson was. The ref gave him a red straight away having seen it. No VAR needed.

It wasn't a violent offense but he did put his hands on the attacker and physically brought him down. Another difference was "intent". Kova clearly intended on committing a foul there. That wasn't a natural action or an action that could even be remotely defended. It's harder to say for sure that Henderson intended on committing a foul. It's also harsher to remove a keeper from the match than any other player.

Everyone seems to agree it was a red apart from you..
Not one fan I spoke to last night at the game said it wasn't a red.
You are entitled to your opinion but you are definitely in the minority regarding this matter.

Haha, I'm well aware that it's me against the world on this. But to be clear my view is simply that I can sympathize with the situation involving the keeper swatting it out on the edge of the box because that's a natural action for him and he did well to get back into the box just prior to it. For me it's more about "intent". I can't sympathize with what Kova did there, that was just a blatant denial of a goal scoring opportunity. There is no way that could be justified and was rightly sent off. It was so "obvious" it didn't need a VAR review. The on pitch ref knew what he saw and acted promptly. It's not the same kind of situation as the Henderson punch out. Kova was more clearly "guilty" of being sent off than Henderson. But neither were "innocent".

 

[give it to gordon]

They're both blatant red cards. They got it wrong on saturday

Personally I think it's 100% impossible to get the keeper red card wrong, it's impossible if you know the rules of football.

I don't do the press/media have var apologised and given a reason and fired the var team ?

 

[give it to gordon]

Well for one reason or another they did not think that the "foul" was serious enough to be looked at for a red card, or they would have sent the referee to the monitor. The "denial" that it was a denial of a GS opportunity because of how the ball bounced (if that's their official reasoning for not sending the ref to the monitor) makes little sense to me and it sounds like many fans as well.

All I know is that VAR was brought in to prevent injustice and in an FA Cup final two blatantly wrong decisions were not corrected. The handball and the penalty and many are calling for VAR to be gone as a result. Wayne Rooney, many others. It's a damning indictment of VAR to get so many key decisions wrong especially in such an important match. And it begs the question, what's the point of having it if it can't effectively correct key decisions?

Going by you don't think the foul was serious enough for a red card, regardless of the rules !.
If a defender clears the ball of the line with his arm I guess to you that not a red card as he didn't hurt anyone !

As for some saying the keeper lost his bearings, so fucking what. He was outside his box if he was a brave keeper he would of headed it. Keeper knew he was outside his box, it was a deliberately hand stopping a goal scoring chance = red card. Simple

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

That's quite the analogy there. I'm not sure how to respond to that. No one was killed here by the keeper swatting the ball out, or even hurt.

I know nobody was killed, but that's how analogies work. They take the principles of one situation and apply them to another situation in order to illustrate a point, which you appear to have ignored.

 

[TheBeautifulGame]

Personally I think it's 100% impossible to get the keeper red card wrong, it's impossible if you know the rules of football.

I can understand your frustration. But the hubris of acting like you don't know the "rules of football" if you don't agree it should have been a red. Not everything is black and white my man, maybe you think that was black and white and that's fine, but obviously VAR didn't think it was so clearly red, for whatever reason. And I'm not taking the side of VAR on this, I have no clue why they didn't review it and issue the free kick. I'd like to know as well.

I don't do the press/media have var apologised and given a reason and fired the var team ?

Haha I think we all know the answer to that.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Going by you don't think the foul was serious enough for a red card, regardless of the rules !.
If a defender clears the ball of the line with his arm I guess to you that not a red card as he didn't hurt anyone !

As for some saying the keeper lost his bearings, so fucking what. He was outside his box if he was a brave keeper he would of headed it. Keeper knew he was outside his box, it was a deliberately hand stopping a goal scoring chance = red card. Simple

Premier league keepers do not loose their bearings.

 

[TheBeautifulGame]

Going by you don't think the foul was serious enough for a red card, regardless of the rules !.
If a defender clears the ball of the line with his arm I guess to you that not a red card as he didn't hurt anyone !

LOL "regardless of the rules". As if the rules aren't open to interpretation. If it was as clear as you think it is, then surely VAR would have sent him off. But yet they didn't! Hmmm.

As for some saying the keeper lost his bearings, so fucking what. He was outside his box if he was a brave keeper he would of headed it. Keeper knew he was outside his box, it was a deliberately hand stopping a goal scoring chance = red card. Simple

I'm not defending the keeper. He clearly committed a handball. I just don't see it as foul play or something deserving of being sent off for. And I'm know I'm alone on this, I'm quite comfortable about that too lol. Sometimes i go against the grain, as I am here. I can just sympathize with the keeper trying to clear it out, something he normally does. He just "lost his bearings" lol I like that.

 

[TheBeautifulGame]

Premier league keepers do not loose their bearings.

He misplaced his compass lol.

 

[give it to gordon]

I can understand your frustration. But the hubris of acting like you don't know the "rules of football" if you don't agree it should have been a red. Not everything is black and white my man, maybe you think that was black and white and that's fine, but obviously VAR didn't think it was so clearly red, for whatever reason. And I'm not taking the side of VAR on this, I have no clue why they didn't review it and issue the free kick. I'd like to know as well.

Haha I think we all know the answer to that.

Perhaps the question should be, how can var get so many things wrong.

Mike them up so we can here in real time, I don't want to hear a doctored recording weeks later.

Like any secret society which var is rumours of cheating, being controlled by of over seas betting groups.

Why are var so scared to let the public know how they came to their decision. Plus why can't they be question as to how that decision was made.

VAR is more secret than the masons, fbi, sas, lol

 

[blue by birth]

LOL "regardless of the rules". As if the rules aren't open to interpretation. If it was as clear as you think it is, then surely VAR would have sent him off. But yet they didn't! Hmmm.

I'm not defending the keeper. He clearly committed a handball. I just don't see it as foul play or something deserving of being sent off for. And I'm know I'm alone on this, I'm quite comfortable about that too lol. Sometimes i go against the grain, as I am here. I can just sympathize with the keeper trying to clear it out, something he normally does. He just "lost his bearings" lol I like that.

Ok let's try it from a different perspective
If the keeper didn't think he was out of his area then why didn't he catch the ball instead of swiping it away?
In my opinion he knew exactly where he was and swiped the ball away from Erling therefore denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity.
As such he should have seen red..regardless whether it was a foot or a yard outside the area...
Or do you think the rules should be slightly different when they happen in our games..ie maybe they can play using the fly keeper rule. Nearest to goal becomes the keeper ..
I am sure if Ortega would have handled the ball in exactly the same position with Eze bearing down on him then it would have been a red..and as much as I would have been disappointed with it I wouldn't have disagreed with it.

 

[TheBeautifulGame]

Ok let's try it from a different perspective
If the keeper didn't think he was out of his area then why didn't he catch the ball instead of swiping it away?
In my opinion he knew exactly where he was and swiped the ball away from Erling therefore denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity.

You're perfectly entitled to that view. And I can understand that. But I think the key word there is "opinion". In your "opinion" he knew exactly where he was. Anotherwords, in your mind, you've assigned a "motive" to the keeper that he was intentionally trying to cheat. This is where we differ. I see that as happening too quickly for even "thinking" to be a part of it. It was more "instincts". Anotherwords, he tried to get back, thought "maybe" he was "about" back and swiped at it as if he was fully in. I mean his body was in, but the disconnect here is that he didn't have the time in the moment to make a well thought out decision. It was just "instinct", doing something he typically does and not being 100% sure exactly where he was because his eyes were focused on the ball and the attacker. I mean he knew "generally' where he was but not precisely due to where his eyes were.

As such he should have seen red..regardless whether it was a foot or a yard outside the area...
Or do you think the rules should be slightly different when they happen in our games..ie maybe they can play using the fly keeper rule. Nearest to goal becomes the keeper ..
I am sure if Ortega would have handled the ball in exactly the same position with Eze bearing down on him then it would have been a red..and as much as I would have been disappointed with it I wouldn't have disagreed with it.

And I bet you would take the same stance if it was Ortega. I just tend to look at intent more, I don't see footballers as robots who are perfect creatures. It in my mind is understandable for Henderson to make that "mistake", moreso than other "mistakes" like with Kova yesterday. I don't think every DOGSO is the same. I understand the language in the rules but I also think there's enough "problems" with the way the rules have been changed to not always agree with them. I mean, look at how many times they changed what a "handball" was since VAR was introduced and how many fans objected to the way they were changing the rules and re-refereeing the game.

All I'm saying was sending him off would have been in my view "harsh". But to your point, you are well within your right to argue that and you're definitely in the majority on that, as I recognize. And I don't particularly like being on the same side of a VAR decision, or in this case a non-decision, even though their explanation apparently is diferent than mine.

By the way, what is your view on the penalty given to City? Was it a good slide tackle? Was Silva "diving"?? Was that VAR's way of trying to "balance things out" after the missed handball earlier?

 

[daztrueblue91]

Car driving killing people analogies are a bit much. A better analogy would be driving 35 mph in a 30 zone to rush to hospital your wife in labour. Swatting a ball out in the way the keeper did is a natural thing that keepers do, it just so happened that he did it here while being slightly out of position to do it legally. It's not a serious foul in my opinion. It's not like bringing down someone in the box or taking someone out with an aggressive slide tackle, or elbowing a player on a header. It was of course deserving of a foul and a FK, and arguably could have been carded. (and i get the whole DOGSO language in there being a red card, so no need to lecture me on that again)

I'm simply saying that this isn't your typical DOGSO situation, a situation like this is not something we often see. Has there ever been something like this since VAR has been introduced that you can remember? Anotherwords, is there precedent for a keeper to be red carded for something like this via a VAR review? Has that ever actually happened before? I'm not referring to DOGSO situations generally to be clear, but specifically keeper swats just outside the box.

I think we'd all like to hear the VAR audio on this to understand exactly why they didn't think it rose to the level of a red card. If they didn't think it was a DOGSO for whatever reason, because of how the ball bounced, which is mad sounding to me, and you guys are positive it was a DOGSO then something's not adding up between what fans think constitutes a DOGSO vs what the officials think it is, at least in this case.

You’re talking absolute nonsense. I’m trying to understand your point but there is not a single part of it that makes any sense.

Whether the keeper is an inch outside the area or a mile outside is irrelevant. Outside the area is outside the area and a keeper cannot use their hands in this situation.

You say that swatting the ball away is a natural thing for a keeper to do, but so is a defender making a tackle. If a defender made a genuine attempt to play the ball but fouled Haaland in the same scenario, it would be a clear red card.

Henderson clearly means to swat the ball away which means the handball is deliberate. The fact he mistimed his position is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[danielwood5]

I can understand your frustration. But the hubris of acting like you don't know the "rules of football" if you don't agree it should have been a red. Not everything is black and white my man, maybe you think that was black and white and that's fine, but obviously VAR didn't think it was so clearly red, for whatever reason. And I'm not taking the side of VAR on this, I have no clue why they didn't review it and issue the free kick. I'd like to know as well.

Haha I think we all know the answer to that.

Unfortunately, both the decisions in the FA Cup Final were both black and white decisions.

As a thought exercise try to answer the following questions with yes or no answers rather than a lengthy diatribe;

Thinking of the Henderson/Haaland incident-
Was the ball outside the penalty area when the goalkeeper used their hand to move it out of the attackers reach? Yes or No?
Was the motion the goalkeeper made to move the ball away from the attacking player a deliberate action? Yes or No?
Did the contact with the goalkeepers hand take the ball away from the attacker thus denying the attacking player a goalscoring opportunity? Yes or No?

Now think about the penalty decision against Bernardo Silva-
Did the defending player get a touch on the ball before any contact with the attacking player? Yes or No?
Was the tackle from the defending player from behind the attacker? Yes or No
Was the contact on the ball enough to move it away from an area the attacking player could control it? Yes or No?
Did the defenders actions stop the attacking player from being able to control the ball? Yes or No?

 

[blue by birth]

You're perfectly entitled to that view. And I can understand that. But I think the key word there is "opinion". In your "opinion" he knew exactly where he was. Anotherwords, in your mind, you've assigned a "motive" to the keeper that he was intentionally trying to cheat. This is where we differ. I see that as happening too quickly for even "thinking" to be a part of it. It was more "instincts". Anotherwords, he tried to get back, thought "maybe" he was "about" back and swiped at it as if he was fully in. I mean his body was in, but the disconnect here is that he didn't have the time in the moment to make a well thought out decision. It was just "instinct", doing something he typically does and not being 100% sure exactly where he was because his eyes were focused on the ball and the attacker. I mean he knew "generally' where he was but not precisely due to where his eyes were.

And I bet you would take the same stance if it was Ortega. I just tend to look at intent more, I don't see footballers as robots who are perfect creatures. It in my mind is understandable for Henderson to make that "mistake", moreso than other "mistakes" like with Kova yesterday. I don't think every DOGSO is the same. I understand the language in the rules but I also think there's enough "problems" with the way the rules have been changed to not always agree with them. I mean, look at how many times they changed what a "handball" was since VAR was introduced and how many fans objected to the way they were changing the rules and re-refereeing the game.

All I'm saying was sending him off would have been in my view "harsh". But to your point, you are well within your right to argue that and you're definitely in the majority on that, as I recognize. And I don't particularly like being on the same side of a VAR decision, or in this case a non-decision, even though their explanation apparently is diferent than mine.

By the way, what is your view on the penalty given to City? Was it a good slide tackle? Was Silva "diving"?? Was that VAR's way of trying to "balance things out" after the missed handball earlier?

I would have said the same if it was Ortega as it would be denying a goal scoring opportunity so you follow the rules ..red card.
The penalty on Silva was a penalty..he didn't touch the ball..he made contact on Silva so it's a penalty.
I think you are just deliberately trying to wind people up and I really have better things to do with my time than rehash this over and over..
Time for you to be honest and reveal who you support because I'm pretty sure you aren't a City fan..I would hazard a guess at either a rag or a dipper..either way I'm through trying to engage with you.
Redcafe or Rawk eagerly await your input

 

[TheBeautifulGame]

You’re talking absolute nonsense. I’m trying to understand your point but there is not a single part of it that makes any sense.

Whether the keeper is an inch outside the area or a mile outside is irrelevant. Outside the area is outside the area and a keeper cannot use their hands in this situation.

You say that swatting the ball away is a natural thing for a keeper to do, but so is a defender making a tackle. If a defender made a genuine attempt to play the ball but fouled Haaland in the same scenario, it would be a clear red card.

Henderson clearly means to swat the ball away which means the handball is deliberate. The fact he mistimed his position is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion.

I'm not talking nonsense. I'm making very salient points it's just that you see it differently. We agree that his arm was outside the area and it should have been a free kick. No argument there. It's a matter of whether it would be deserving of a red card. The VARs didn't think so apparently for whatever reason. If their reasoning was that they didn't think it was a DOAGSO then that logic is problematic because I do agree with ya'll that it clearly was. And I know what that is supposed to mean. All I'm saying is that I can sympathize with the keeper being so close to the edge of the box. I don't think his well thought out "intent" was to commit a handball. He was trying to get back into the box before swatting it and in that moment instincts kicked in.

So I can't conclude that it was a "deliberate" handball due to the fact that he did well enough to get his body back into the box before swatting it. Still a foul, still should have been a free kick, maybe even a card. I'm not just comfortable sending him off like that. But that's just me. That's just my interpretation of it giving the benefit of the doubt to the keeper. As far as a defender making a tackle being a natural thing to do, yeah sure, but in order for a tackle to not to be a foul, he can't contact the defender. He needs to be "playing the ball" in order to avoid committing a foul let alone being booked. So trying to equate tackling to a keeper swatting a ball is a bit much. Both can be natural acts but there are ways in which you can do it legally and ways in which you can't. In the keeper's case, it was simply where he was whilst doing what he did, vs a tackle which he could only be red carded if he completely misses the ball and actually takes his guy out.